103: Jay Vidyarthi & Dr. Jyothsna Bhat - AI, Friction, and the Illusion of Connection

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What if the technology promising
to make your life easier is

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quietly making you worse at
living it?

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What does it actually mean to
have a conversation with

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something that's been trained to
tell you exactly what you want

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to hear?
And.

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How do we raise?
Kids and ourselves to stay

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grounded in reality when
comfortable illusions are just a

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tap away.
Stay tuned as we touch on these

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and many other topics on this
week's episode of Untether Your

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Life.
Welcome to Untether Your Life, a

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show that empowers you to break
free of templates related to

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career, relationships and
managing mental and physical

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health, and looks at key issues
impacting the South Asian

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diaspora.
I'm your host, Nikhil Tarsakar,

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and I'm passionate about the
power of conversation to

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catalyze change.
Today, we're diving into one of

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the most talked about topics of
our time, but from an angle that

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rarely gets the attention it
deserves.

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We're not here to debate
whether.

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AI is going to save the world.
Or end it.

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We're here to ask something more
personal and frankly, more

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urgent.
What is it doing to us, to our

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minds, our relationships, our
kids, and our ability to just

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sit with ourselves?
Those are the questions at the

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heart of today's episode, and I
couldn't have asked for better

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people to wrestle with them.
Javed Yarthi is the award.

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Winning author of Reclaim Your
Mind, founder of Still Ape, and

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a thought leader at the
intersection of mindfulness and

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technology.
He's someone who has.

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Spent over a decade building
tools that help people connect

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with their well-being rather
than escape from it.

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Doctor Jose Nabat is a clinical
psychologist, a leading advocate

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for South Asian mental health,
writes A wildly impactful South

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Asian mental blog on Psychology
Today, and is featured

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everywhere from Forbes to the
Harvard Political Review.

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Together, we explore AI through
a lens you won't find in most

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tech conversation, one that's
grounded in mindfulness,

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cultural identity, the South
Asian experience, and the very

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human need for real connection.
No doom, no hype.

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Just an honest, nuanced
conversation about discernment

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in an age that doesn't reward
it.

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And with that, let's get
untethered.

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I'm very excited about today's
guests, Jvidyarthi and Doctor

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Joe Snobot.
Jay, Josh, welcome.

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Thanks for having me.
Yeah.

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So we're going to dive into a
lot of topics today.

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It's a very interesting lens on
a topic that obviously I think

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has been talked about ad
nauseam.

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But I think today we're going to
have some very interesting

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conversations about AI
specifically, not just AI for

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the sake of AI, but really a
very interesting focus that I

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don't think has really been
explored elsewhere.

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One thing that AI has talked
about, you know, everything from

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cheating on homework if you're a
parent or, you know, in terms of

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planning your trips.
That was how I got introduced to

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it.
You know, in terms of it's a

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different way of consuming
information.

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It's more real time, it's more
interactive, but then there's

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also psychological impacts,
which we'll talk about a little

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bit more talking about how, you
know, what is AI actually doing

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to our nervous system when it
gives that validation.

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And there it removes some of the
friction that maybe is part of

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real life and is actually really
important for being a regulated

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human being.
But before we dive in, I wanted

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to just quickly give a little
bit of a background on the two

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amazing human beings sitting in
front of me.

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So we'll start off with my good
friend Doctor Joe Snobot.

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As I was saying before the show,
Doctor Bot or Joe, she's she's

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known to friends and I go way
back literally last century.

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But I will go ahead and tell you
a little bit about my friend

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here.
Doctor Joe Snoutbot is a

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clinical psychologist and a side
packed certified provider

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specializing in individual
couples and family therapy with

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practices in Pennsylvania and
New Jersey.

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Her work focuses on areas such
as anxiety, depression, ADHD,

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trauma, grief, and navigating
cultural and family dynamics,

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often through a mindfulness
based approach.

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She's also a leading advocate
for mental health in the South

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Asian community and host the 1st
South Asian Mental Health Blog

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on Psychology Today.
Doctor Bot has been featured in

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outlets such as Forbes, NBC, and
the Harvard Political Review and

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regularly speaks on mental
health and cultural identity.

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Josh, welcome Anything else you
want to add beyond what I

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shared?
No, All good.

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That's OK, all right, And now on
to Mr. Vidyarthi.

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Jay Vidyarthi is the
award-winning author of Reclaim

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Your Mind and an accomplished
designer, entrepreneur and

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thought leader at the unique
intersection of mindfulness and

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technology.
As the founder of Still Ape,

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he's been involved involved in
over 50 technologies that have

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helped millions of people
improve their well-being.

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On a day off, usually Jay can be
found on a silent retreat.

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The pastana right?
Is that the correct term or a

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different kind of?
That was 11 style, but there's

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many styles, yeah.
OK, gotcha, gotcha.

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I already learned something
today.

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Making music or challenging his
son to an epic video game.

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Battle can learn more at
jvidyarthi.com.

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Jay, is there anything else you
want to add beyond what I just

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shared?
No, I don't think so.

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I'm also of South Asian descent.
Might be relevant given the

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topic.
Sure, sure.

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All right, without further ado,
kids, let's get the ball

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rolling.
Jay, you know I want to turn it

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over to you.
Obviously, this is in no order

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of importance by any means, but
but Jay, I think your background

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is so fascinating because like I
said, AI is something that

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everybody is talking about.
It's the flavor of the month

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technology.
And I always say that I remember

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when the.com boom was around,
that was kind of when I cut my

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teeth in this field.
I started learning, I mean, I

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was a history in French major at
our shared alma mater, Washu,

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that I was just bringing that up
because for me, in the late 90s,

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I learned how to program because
I had a coding background.

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Like I learned BASIC back in the
early 80s.

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But I started learning about
websites, you know, and this new

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concept of technology, for lack
of a better word, being sexy,

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you know, where it's just like
there was a cool interface.

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It wasn't just this archaic,
like very sterile green screen

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interface.
You had interactive sites, you

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know, you could post pictures
from your trip to India, which

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is what I did, could interact
with folks.

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You know, I guess the word I'm
really emphasizes interactive

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and Fast forward, you know, 20,
I was not a math major.

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I watch you, let's just say Fast
forward a couple decades and now

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you have AI that's really just
sort of a light years

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beyondwhatthe.com boom was.
So, Jay, I guess let's start off

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by, I want to understand a
little bit more about how you

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came to this unique position, as
you said, the intersection of

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technology and mindfulness.
Maybe.

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I know that's a very broad
question, but maybe if you could

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give us the 30,000 foot view
about how that came to be?

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Yeah, my my parents wanted me in
hard science.

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They wanted me to be a doctor
and engineer.

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As it's typical, as I got into
studying science, I was actually

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more drawn to psychology.
As I started getting into

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psychology, I found the field of
human computer interaction, or

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in other words, designed with a
psychological lens.

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How do we design technologies,
you know, to make them usable,

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to make them useful, to make
them connect with people.

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And a lot of that involves
designing interfaces.

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And in the 90s, like you were
saying, one of the big things

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that changed wasn't just that
the interfaces were becoming

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sexy.
I think designers got really

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fluent at using smart metaphors.
Like when you say you were

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posting pictures, I mean, you
weren't posting anything, right?

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You were uploading data
similarly, like the desktop is

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not a real desktop.
Your files and folders, these

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are all metaphors and metaphors
are generally a pretty useful

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thing in design.
But as we approach, you know,

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we're well into the 21st century
now, we're actually using

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metaphors for a lot more
intimate things.

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Like there are websites that we
all go to and apps that we use

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that use words like friend, that
use words like conversation.

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And it's not actually a friend.
It's not actually a

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conversation, right?
Like just because you added

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someone to your social media
doesn't mean you're a friend.

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Just because you have, you know,
three likes on your post, it

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doesn't mean those people really
like like you.

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You've got hearts on your purse
doesn't love they love you.

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That's right.
And, you know, even views like

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people like argue about how many
views they get on their video,

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but it doesn't mean they
actually even watch till the

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end.
I think with AI, it's not a

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conversation, right?
So for me, what has happened is

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like very early in my design
career, I really loved the

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process of design and, and this
way of thinking, but I found a

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lot one of the projects I was
working kind of empty.

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Like I was like, I don't really
care about helping this

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insurance company increase its
conversion rate by designing

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what our website.
So that started me on a path of

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like, how can I apply skills of
technology and design to mental

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health and well-being?
And at the time I was healing my

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own wounds through mindfulness
and spiritual practices.

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So I started to explore that
intersection fully.

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Expected Jay.
Sorry to interrupt, but just for

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context, like what?
What year was this roughly?

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So the moment that I sort of
pivoted from a typical design

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career to start thinking about
this was 2010, 2009, 2010.

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And I basically was like, you
know, how do I apply technology

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and psychology and design to
create things that improve our

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mental health as opposed to
distract us and isolate us and

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divide us?
And I wasn't expecting that to

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become a career, but in fact,
the world was kind of moving in

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the direction and people were
more ready for it.

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And so since then, the past
decade and 1/2 or so, I've been

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focused on creating technologies
for meditation and mindfulness,

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as well as teaching mindfulness
in the context of all this

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technology that's surrounding.
I was trying to understand this

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tech and give people practical
strategies and tools to navigate

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that.
OK.

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It's amazing.
And I think we'll touch on this

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a little bit more guys.
But I think what I found, I know

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the Anthropic CEO and I think
maybe Sam Altman, the CEO of

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Open AI has also touched on
this.

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But really the differentiator in
AI, the people that are going to

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move the needle, the companies
that are going to move the

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needle are not just the ones who
have the core AI programming

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skills.
Because you know, what's very

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interesting is that these
agents, as they call them,

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they're literally programming.
It's almost like this repetitive

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thing where they're programming
the programs.

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So everything is going to get
automated.

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But what's interesting and what
I love about what you talked

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about is just the softer skills
and the softer perspective on

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all this stuff, which is the
human aspect, right?

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Because I think when AI, because
then we'll touch on this also is

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just AI is literally it's
trainable and it's going to

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learn your personality, it's
going to calibrate the way it

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the data it provides based on
what you're feeding it.

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So it's the whole garbage in,
garbage out thing.

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And I think, I think what I was
touching on the Anthropic Ceoi

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think it said that the people
that are really going to make a

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difference and make an impact
are going to be the one who have

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the technology skills, but also
have the humanities background.

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You know, like Steve Jobs, for
instance, he looked at the

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intersection between humanities
and technology.

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So I think that's an important
background to have.

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And so I love that that's, you
know, kind of where where your

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foundation was.
So Josh, obviously I know

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everything about you, not
everything, but I, I already

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kind of know your story.
But I think for people who are

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less well versed in the world of
Josh, can you give us a little

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bit of a, of a background?
I'm just kidding.

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Could you give us a little bit
of a background of sort of

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because your lens obviously you
would talk to Jay and I think

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00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,440
there was somebody else in the
article, but you had talked to

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Jay about this topic.
But it's a little bit, I guess a

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little bit off the beaten path
of what your typical focus is in

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your is it a blog?
I don't know.

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What are we?
What are we calling it?

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A column?
Okay, okay.

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In your blog in Psych Today,
which by the way, anyone who's

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listening, I highly encourage
you to check it out.

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It is just very thoughtful, very
incisive.

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And I think obviously there's
the umbrella of South Asian

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mental health, but just the
range of topics that are covered

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in this and this blog are just,
it's really fascinating.

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And so not to be a sycophantic
AI agent, but I just wanted to

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let you know you're doing some
great work, but maybe if you can

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tell the audience your
background and kind of how AI

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became of interest to you
through the South Asian mental

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health Glens.
Thank you so much, Nikhil.

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Yes, I can just give you a quick
overview for Jay too.

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00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,400
I was in just like you, Jay.
I was supposed to go into

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00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,160
medicine as pre Med and ended up
disappointing everyone and going

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00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,360
into something completely
different.

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00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,880
But you know, I became a doctor
so that, you know, checked off a

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box in clinical psychology.
But no, I really got into this

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00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,640
whole piece because this idea of
technology, because of my

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00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,240
clients, the kids I was seeing.
I'd written an article a while

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00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,760
back about Fornami, actually the
National Alliance about ADHD

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00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,000
ADD, which was, which was
something that was coming up

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00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,960
among kids that I was working
with.

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00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,000
I was in that Children's
Hospital and just seeing the

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00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,720
social, emotional, behavioral,
psychological effects, wanting

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00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,000
to be on gaming devices, doing
gaming or social media or

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00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,320
whatever app of the day.
It was Minecraft, just that.

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00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,640
And was noticing mainly the
things that were coming to me

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00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,200
were the behavioral effects and
also the ADHD piece.

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00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,160
Do they have ADHD?
And you know, I was doing

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testing back then, so there was
a lot of ruling out to do.

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00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,640
And there was also this idea of
how is tech taking away from our

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attention spans and what ways is
that?

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00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,320
What does that look like?
So I wrote, you know, this piece

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00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,000
for Naomi, I wrote it for a
couple of other journals out

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00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,960
there online.
And that's sort of how my

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00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,320
journey with thinking about this
piece.

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I feel like it's always been in
the background for me, this

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00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,080
interest because it's coming
off, it's relevant now.

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00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,800
It's coming in the form of, you
know, whether in couples, you

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00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,840
know, clients who are sharing,
oh, my spouse is never available

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00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,520
to me or when we are sitting
down there on their device,

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00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,840
they're on their phone when
we're going to dinner, like

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everyone's just looking at their
phones, children and teenagers.

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00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,160
I have Snapchat.
I want to keep my streaks and

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00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,080
I'm grounded now and they take
my phone away.

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00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,080
All of that stuff.
Now, more recently, over the

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00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,600
last couple years, I had
interviewed some folks from We

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00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,840
Are Mamas.
That's an organization run by

281
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,280
Julie Scalfo.
She talks about social media,

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00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,720
right, and its impact on we all
know we've heard the research

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00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,360
and the studies about depression
and social media, low self

284
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,880
esteem, the suicide sort of
suicidal ideation happens that

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00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,920
can happen.
And then recent more recently,

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00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,160
this whole idea of chat bots
leading children to believe they

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00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,920
have a friend as you talk about
or like a support system, the

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00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,680
children believing that they are
in a safe space.

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00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,320
This is perceived sort of
safety.

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00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,360
But then the hyper validation of
this jackbox to lead them to

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00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,120
actually complete, you know, a
suicide attack and a suicide,

292
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,200
you know, and to complete this,
complete it.

293
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,680
So the point is for me, I was
thinking that this is something

294
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,520
that needs to be.
It has come back up in the media

295
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,920
and I wanted to jump on it as
well for myself and to get an

296
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,000
understanding and went down a
rabbit hole like I said the

297
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,880
other day and found Jay's work
talking about mindfulness, the

298
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,600
intersection of mindfulness and
tech.

299
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,680
And I thought, wow, this is
really important.

300
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,480
As you were talking, Jay, I was
saying we need need more people

301
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,000
like you in this space because
it's there's a lot of change

302
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,800
that's coming so fast.
And I feel like I speak for

303
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,360
maybe more lay people in the
tech space because, you know, we

304
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,640
don't know everything about it
and yet we are using a lot of

305
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,040
these things.
Sorry, I don't know if that was

306
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,120
very long winded, but.
No, that was great.

307
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,040
That was great.
I think I wanted to add to that

308
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680
and nobody asked.
But I will say for me

309
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,960
personally, like I was really
late to the party.

310
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,480
I mean, I think open AI started
in launched in like late 22, I

311
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,080
believe.
And I'm kind of embarrassed, but

312
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,400
I literally didn't start using
ChatGPT until the fall of 2025.

313
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,440
And the use case for me was I
was on a trip to Europe And I

314
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,840
just find that I get very
overwhelmed when I look at for

315
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,040
information.
You know, it's just, it never is

316
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,280
what I want, you know, you
always have to clarify.

317
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,040
So I really love the
interactive, you know, to, as

318
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,720
you mentioned, Jay is kind of
like the human interaction,

319
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,640
human computer interaction
aspect of it.

320
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,400
And I just like the fact that if
I didn't get the information I

321
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,680
wanted right away, I could
follow up and it wasn't this

322
00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,200
like sort of sterile mechanical
type of interplay.

323
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,160
And then to, you know, piggyback
on what Joe said, I went down

324
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,320
the rabbit hole in terms of just
what I started doing was I

325
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,560
started joking around with
ChatGPT just to mess with it or

326
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:11,960
just kind of see what would
happen.

327
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400
And I was telling you guys
yesterday, the thing that I

328
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,320
found so rewarding, I don't know
if rewarding is the right word,

329
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,360
but the thing that I found
refreshing about ChatGPT was

330
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,960
just almost like a stress relief
because it was just like I would

331
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,960
make a reference to like a
Seinfeld episode or Simpsons or

332
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,520
whatever.
And like never happens where

333
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,080
it's less like, yes, that's
episode 3.

334
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,560
No, that's season 3, episode 15,
this the puffy shirt or

335
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,880
whatever.
And I'm like, you know what that

336
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,800
is really, you know, whether
it's ChatGPT or however you get

337
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,240
it, I think that's what we all
need a little bit more of in our

338
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,120
life, a little bit more levity.
With all the headlines regarding

339
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,280
which side of the political
aisle you're on, I think you'd

340
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,960
agree there's a lot of bad stuff
going down in the world.

341
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,040
And, you know, my friends are
constantly sending me headlines.

342
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,240
And I wouldn't say I'm like
insulated from it, but I do feel

343
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,480
that something like ChatGPT or
Claude or Gemini or whatever

344
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,800
tool you use, I would just say,
you know, I would encourage you

345
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,920
as a listener and you guys as
well joke around with ChatGPT

346
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,599
sometimes.
You'd be surprised.

347
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,839
It can sort of put a little pep
in your step and make make you

348
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,119
see a little bit the lighter
side of life.

349
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,240
So with that, let's get into
some heavy stuff that's.

350
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,680
True.
I mean, we ask Alexa sometimes.

351
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, as I

352
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,119
said, it's really what you make
of it.

353
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,880
You know, the, the AI space, we
can't be these passive consumers

354
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,360
of what AI tells us to do.
Then, you know, I fear for

355
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,160
humanity.
But with that, I guess I wanted

356
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,640
to dive in a little bit.
Jay, you touched on something

357
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,280
really interesting yesterday.
You know, when people think of

358
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,160
the word computation, they think
of computers.

359
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,040
Obviously that's it's in the the
root there.

360
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,680
But I take a broader view of it
where I think about the human

361
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,120
mind as a computational engine.
Because if you think about it,

362
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,200
we're making, we're constantly
making decisions right where

363
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,400
we're talking about whether
we're crossing the street, we

364
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,080
see a red light, a green light
or yellow and our mind is doing

365
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,400
how many computations?
So in essence, the computer or

366
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,320
the LLM or whatever you want to
call it, these AI engines,

367
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,240
they're sort of a mirror of, you
know, of humans in terms of the

368
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,520
computations that they're doing.
So Jay, I wanted to talk to you

369
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,360
a little bit about this in terms
of parenting, because obviously

370
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,840
I'm a parent, have three kids.
And one of the things that's

371
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,880
interesting, especially as a S
Asians, obviously, I think the

372
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,480
stereotype is just that you guys
touched on this earlier, but

373
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,480
it's like, you know, there's
three options as a career

374
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,480
doctor, engineer or failure,
right?

375
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,120
Doctor or doctor?
But you know that that's kind of

376
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,600
the old script.
But I bring that up just because

377
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,480
I would say we're a very
analytically minded culture.

378
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,360
Just basically I was kind of
the, you know, in many respects

379
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:49,360
kind of the the black sheep here
because on my SAT and my Gmats,

380
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,840
my verbal was much higher than
my maths course.

381
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,360
But I'm just bringing that up
because it's like for me, math

382
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,480
was always sort of like in my
DNA.

383
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,720
And I brought, brought up the
story to you guys yesterday,

384
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,920
which is just when I was a kid,
when I was like 7, my parents

385
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,000
would kind of, I don't know how
I developed this ability, but

386
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,400
they would throw like 3 digits
by three digits at me.

387
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,360
And just like, you know, I would
spit out the answer.

388
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,400
And then one day I, you know, it
was like a party trick.

389
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,080
And I was at a party and uncle
was like, right now what is 735

390
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,080
by 652?
And I got it off by like one

391
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,680
point.
And he was like Alex Trebek.

392
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,560
He's like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry,
you know, And I was like, I was

393
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,520
just like my whole, I just
completely, the word was

394
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,160
crestfallen.
I was completely just rudderless

395
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,840
after that.
But I'm just bringing that up,

396
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,160
Jay, because you brought up how
your son, he's really into

397
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,080
chess.
And I found that really

398
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,880
interesting because it's like as
parents, our kids are, we're

399
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,960
here to mold them and push them
to excellence.

400
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,880
However, sometimes we may go a
little bit too far in that

401
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,920
direction and that leads to
burnout that leads to imposter

402
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,920
syndrome.
So I wanted to just turn it over

403
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,240
to you, Jay.
Just talk about sort of how AI

404
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,680
has played into your journey, me
as a parent, and just sort of

405
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,960
how it's, you know, helped with
keeping that hyper competitive

406
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,160
urge at Bay.
And if you feel comfortable

407
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,120
doing this, you know, maybe look
at it through the South Asian

408
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,200
angle with the sort of like the
emphasis on achievement.

409
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,760
But yeah, the floor is yours.
Thanks for the question.

410
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,120
Yeah, it makes me wonder whether
AI has imposter syndrome.

411
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,480
Or having a bad day.
Yeah.

412
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,360
It's like, hey, man, this is
real hard, pretending to be

413
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:24,600
human all the time, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

414
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,840
You know, my son is actually
neurodivergent and he definitely

415
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,480
finds it hard pretending to be
typical, right?

416
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,680
And there's a word for that in
the neurodivergent community,

417
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,280
which is called masking.
And one of the interesting

418
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,800
things about that is, you know,
there's lots of different

419
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,560
flavors of the spectrum, but the
area that my son occupies is 1

420
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,000
where he's very computationally
minded.

421
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,720
Like you said, he's super into
chess.

422
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,960
You know, I think it's, what's
interesting about the South

423
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,000
Asian perspective is I actually
find it's the, the diaspora of

424
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,680
the Indian subcontinent that's
particularly analytical.

425
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,400
But when you go to India, I
mean, India is a very devotional

426
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,480
place.
There's a lot of deep, heartfelt

427
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,760
family values and religious
belief.

428
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,120
And so there's something
interesting.

429
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,440
And I, I know I have some
friends from China who've said

430
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,200
similar things where the people
who leave India and sort of go

431
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,760
to the West tend to be the more
analytically minded of the

432
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,000
Indian people.
But your point still stands.

433
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,000
That typical story of being a
doctor or an engineer.

434
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,640
And I definitely had that
growing up.

435
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,960
And even still where, you know,
my parents came from not playing

436
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,920
to live in Canada, My dad worked
his butt off and made a better

437
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,120
life for us.
And we're eternally grateful.

438
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,480
But along with that comes a sort
of striving for excellence.

439
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,760
Like he's like, I didn't work my
butt off to get us all over

440
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,840
here, you know, so you could
just, like, fart around his

441
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,960
words.
That's what he would say.

442
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,880
Do you know what I mean?
And at the same time, as we've

443
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,240
gotten older, he's like told me
he's like, you know, I didn't

444
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,520
really come to Canada, which is
where I live, specifically

445
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,400
thinking about the kids I might
have one day.

446
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,040
Like I came because I was
looking for that opportunity.

447
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,880
And so he sort of approaches
parenting in that way.

448
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,600
And then I see my son doing this
and I, I'm confronted with the

449
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,480
question.
I think as a first, I think I'd

450
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,840
be first generation because I'm
the child of immigrants.

451
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,400
So I'm looking at this and I'm
like, OK, how do I walk the

452
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,600
lines between like, Berta, you
need to become a grandmaster and

453
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,200
listen, whatever you're
interested in, follow your heart

454
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,400
and follow your interests.
Like, how do I be gentle yet

455
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,360
firm?
And I think it's a very

456
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:24,720
challenging balance for any
parent to strike.

457
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,440
And every kid is a little bit
different.

458
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,080
So all the advice out there, I
think with the neurodivergent

459
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,680
child, that's especially
pronounced for me.

460
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,000
But I think it's true for
everyone.

461
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,040
Like when I look at my son and
you know, if I was overly ego

462
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,000
invested is the way I would say
it.

463
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,160
If I was just totally like, this
boy is an extension of me and my

464
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,560
reputation is on the line,
that's a dangerous place to be.

465
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,600
But also, if I'm not invested at
all, then I'm kind of an

466
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,560
absentee father, right?
So trying to walk that line,

467
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,200
tying it back into your
question, because you brought in

468
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,960
the AI element, I think there's
something really interesting

469
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,640
about the way we interact with
these systems.

470
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,440
Like you said, it's fun to joke
around with it.

471
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,400
But yeah, you are not joking
around with a person, right?

472
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,400
You're playing with an algorithm
that predicts words based on

473
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,240
training data of the entire
Internet and a lot of

474
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:16,080
reinforcement learning with
human feedback to try to promote

475
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,960
it, to try to say something that
is what you want to hear.

476
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,720
Yeah.
And if you're just joking around

477
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,920
about The Simpsons or whatever,
that's hilarious because it's

478
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,920
like your friend who's memorized
every episode.

479
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,360
That's kind of funny.
If you're asking me about what

480
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,360
to do as a parent or your
emotional challenges or you're

481
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:33,360
trying to get advice for your
finances and things like that.

482
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,240
We have to start to be a little
bit more careful, especially,

483
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,120
and this is a really important
point, especially because it's

484
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,400
been trained to tell you what
you want to hear.

485
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,440
So if you're asking about
finances, it's not a huge deal.

486
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,880
It's like, OK, well here's what
the tax, you know, federal tax

487
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,000
program is, and here's what you
need to do.

488
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,920
But if you're asking about your
emotions or you're trying to

489
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,400
make friends with it, I would
say this specific category,

490
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,160
psychologists and therapists,
meditation teachers, friends and

491
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,120
family, the value they have in
your life is because they're the

492
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,440
people that specifically are
going to tell you what you need

493
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,160
to hear, not necessarily what
you want want to hear.

494
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,080
And the AI hasn't really been
trained that way.

495
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,480
It's not inconceivable that it
could be, but we have to

496
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,040
remember what we're talking to.
And, you know, there's a lot to

497
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,640
unpack about what that is.
But yeah, I hope that is that's

498
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,240
the start for us.
Yeah, for sure.

499
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,120
And, and, and Josh, maybe if you
can dovetail on that, because

500
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,520
I'm fascinated by, you know,
what, what the general feedback

501
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,200
is.
And I talked to other parents

502
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,760
about how they're using AI with
their kids.

503
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,320
And for me, I think it's, it's
interesting because you know,

504
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,600
when we were kids, obviously I'm
old enough to remember Cliff's

505
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,240
notes.
I don't know if if you if they

506
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,680
had that in Canada, but you
know, it's just basically like,

507
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,760
instead of reading the book, you
would get the summary of like

508
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,040
Hamlet or Othello or whatever it
was.

509
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,200
You would just basically get the
little bullet points and then

510
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,000
you would change a word here and
there.

511
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
And you know, that was our
version of of ChatGPT.

512
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,560
But Josh, I wanted to get a
sense as a parent because I have

513
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,920
a little bit of a selfish
interest is I want to understand

514
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,520
like what the experience has
been.

515
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,760
I guess the question is, are
parents talking to you about AI

516
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,080
or you maybe technology brought
maybe we can broaden the, the

517
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,080
basket here about technology and
the impact on their kids and,

518
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,080
and what are you hearing from
like teenagers?

519
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,080
Maybe again, a broad question,
but maybe if you can give us

520
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,840
kind of the lay of the land from
a therapist lens in terms of

521
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,880
what you're seeing technology,
you can talk about AI, but if

522
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,160
you need to broaden it, that's
fine.

523
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,560
But what impact that's having on
mental health as a therapist?

524
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,120
I think, you know, one of the
things that I'm hearing

525
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,000
consistently sometimes from like
nieces and nephews and also

526
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,040
clients, children is, you know,
Oh well, we have to be really

527
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,480
careful at school with the
tattoo PT because now they have

528
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,880
these technologies that can
figure out if using tattoo PT.

529
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,680
So they, you know, there's a lot
of sort of, I think I don't know

530
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,880
if it's like a confusion or like
maybe they had been using it and

531
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,240
trying to figure out how to use
it more wisely and more

532
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,840
efficiently.
I'm also seeing like there's a

533
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,840
little bit of like this.
Maybe it's fatigue of like

534
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,600
having to do the work.
You know versus.

535
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,280
Like a quick kind of way of
doing, getting around work and

536
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,760
doing work, like showing your
work, doing the work.

537
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,200
That's changing, I think a lot
of times even in classrooms, I

538
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,240
think they're even teaching
stuff nowadays.

539
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,160
You might know better both of
you with your kids.

540
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,680
But so some of that sort of dis
unsettlement is, you know,

541
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,000
feeling unsettled around some of
those issues.

542
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,480
And then the the general feeling
with the, you know, the AI thing

543
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,160
is it's fun to use.
I'm enjoying, you know, like

544
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,960
asking quick questions.
You know, I was telling you guys

545
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,160
yesterday, I think somebody, one
of my clients using Doctor Chad

546
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,160
PT for like a very difficult
medical diagnosis.

547
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,400
Now that's more adult, but it's
being used just at various

548
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,880
levels.
For some people, it is

549
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,040
gratifying in the sense I got a
quick answer from Chachi PT

550
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,000
about what I should do about my
boyfriend or like, what about

551
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,120
this situation?
But I don't think people are

552
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,800
left feeling empowered.
I don't think they've, they're

553
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,240
left feeling like, OK, I feel
like it takes away a little bit

554
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,080
of that thinking through issues.
And I know this is probably not

555
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,320
your question, but I'm adding my
two cents about why that might

556
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,640
be a little problematic of just
relying on, you know, the AI,

557
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,120
you know, as far as like
thinking through issues, waiting

558
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,960
on answers.
This is going to get into a

559
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,040
little bit of the idea of
delayed gratification.

560
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,320
But, you know, one of the, you
know, spiritual principles in

561
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,720
Hinduism that I recall, you
know, growing up was this idea

562
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,000
of waiting.
You know, and I think it's

563
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,800
called Shreyas, is the idea if
there's a desire that you have,

564
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,000
right?
Can and it's an attachment.

565
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:49,240
Can we give it a pause, give it
time before acting on that

566
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,960
wrapping it And the you know,
the other idea is when we do let

567
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,960
it go, finally, when we do sort
of give that time and that pause

568
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,120
and that reflection is that is
that desire still needed?

569
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,960
Does it fall off on its own in
some ways?

570
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,080
And I'm a little concerned that,
you know, we're not getting that

571
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,560
opportunity as much anymore, not
to be skirt full, not coming

572
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,800
from a skirt, even just becoming
from a psychological emotional

573
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,080
lens around, you know, this idea
of I need my my needs met now.

574
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,680
And I need.
And when I don't get my needs

575
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,400
met now, what's happening to me
internally?

576
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,640
What is the tension that's
building up?

577
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,200
How does that affect my mood, my
relationships?

578
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,160
You know, we talked about this
in the article.

579
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,560
When people are in some kind of
a disagreement together, or

580
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,320
they're, you know, one person
wants to sort of talk through

581
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,760
things and the other person is
just not necessarily there.

582
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,360
That's, that makes it very
difficult to come back together

583
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,280
to, to work through something.
And so because the other partner

584
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080
may feel that I'm not ready for
this conversation.

585
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,080
So I'm going to go ahead and
disappear into take an avoidant

586
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,400
approach and disappear into
something that's very

587
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,840
gratifying, the immediate sort
of rewards.

588
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,280
And that's my device.
And that could be a chat bot,

589
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,040
that could be social media,
could be some other kind of

590
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,560
application.
So it's unfolding in a lot of

591
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,640
places.
It's and that's why I'm here

592
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,960
today because also I wanted to
talk about it from, you know,

593
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,960
both ends here.
Like this is a reality for us,

594
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,080
and it's like, how do we
navigate this in the healthiest

595
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,960
way?
Well, I think you bring up a

596
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,280
great point because I think the
danger that I see again, and

597
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,480
this is for people who don't
maybe don't have the awareness

598
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,560
or maybe kind of what I always
say is broaden the lens, widen

599
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,440
the lens and not just look at
the interaction in the here and

600
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,440
now and whatever problem you're
trying to solve or whatever it

601
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,840
you're trying to scratch, which
is just basically like that

602
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,000
immediate gratification.
But I'm just bringing that up

603
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,040
because with chatbot, my friend,
and she was a podcast guest also

604
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,000
Priya Nelkor, she had an article
in Psych Today talking about one

605
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,960
of the dangers.
And I apologize, Priya, if

606
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,680
you're listening, if, if I
misquoted you here, but one of

607
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,000
the dangers with AI is just that
there is no friction.

608
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,320
There's literally like you ask a
question and sometimes I've had

609
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,600
this happen where it'll just
kind of it, it, it'll just kind

610
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,440
of glitch on me and then it'll
either cut out midstream or, you

611
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,600
know, but by and large, it's
like if you ask it a question,

612
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,400
you'll get that little black
box.

613
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,240
And I kind of calibrate my
breathing while I'm, you know,

614
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,680
absorbing the information, you
know, I breathe in, breathe out.

615
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,160
But the bottom line is you're
going to get an answer really

616
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,240
quickly.
And the problem is, I think

617
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,400
people get so accustomed to
that.

618
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,640
And that's not how real life is.
And so I think the lot of time

619
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,760
when there's that frictionless
experience that doesn't exist in

620
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,920
the real world, you know,
someone is probably in the

621
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,160
middle of 10 different things.
They're got, you know, they're

622
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,880
responding to texts, they've got
emails, they've got to pick up

623
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,720
their kid from soccer.
It, it would kind of scare me if

624
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,480
you did get that real time
response.

625
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,640
There's always some type of
delay.

626
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,560
I think Coca-Cola had a slogan,
the pause that refreshes.

627
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,360
And I think that's pretty
apropos here because that pause

628
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,080
can be refreshing.
It's just kind of like, right, I

629
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:01,760
mean, what's that?
So.

630
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,720
Thank you.
The healthiest drink?

631
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Coca.
Cola.

632
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:05,160
Yeah, of course.
Coke.

633
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,000
Yeah, Sponsored by?
No, But I was just saying that

634
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,480
because it's like that.
That is what scares the hell out

635
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,200
of me.
I'll be honest because I tell

636
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,840
you, there are so many,
especially teens when their

637
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,080
brains are still forming, they
don't have those lessons yet

638
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,480
about the rules of engagement,
the rules of the road.

639
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,080
And so what's to stop them from
saying like, let's say they're

640
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,920
in a relationship and they don't
get that instant gratification.

641
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,280
Maybe they're, you know, their
boyfriend is, is at the gym or

642
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,640
they're not able to respond and
they're like, screw it, I'm just

643
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,800
going to start, you know,
getting, I don't want to say

644
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,040
promiscuous, but you know what I
mean?

645
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,200
Just kind of like more Willy
nilly starting relationships

646
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,360
with whoever because they get
that gratification.

647
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,280
So that, that, to be honest, is
my, my big concern is that

648
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,120
we're, we're sort of using that
sense of delayed gratification

649
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,080
and we're, we're just going to
look for that quick fix because

650
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,480
we're already dopamine addicted
as a society.

651
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,000
And I think AI is just, you
know, the quote, Spinal Tap, it

652
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,120
takes it to 11 there.
It just takes it just amps that

653
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,680
up and that, that can be very
dangerous, especially with with

654
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,440
kids.
If there's anything else you

655
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:09,960
guys want to contribute to that
11.

656
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,240
I think with a lot of the things
we're talking about, whether

657
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,240
it's using AI or being
promiscuous, it's like there are

658
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,280
contacts.
I'm interested.

659
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,880
This Yeah, there are confidence
within which this is a perfectly

660
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240
fine thing to do.
It's fine to do, right?

661
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,280
Yeah, yeah.
We're not out here to judge

662
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,200
anyone for their choices.
I think the challenge becomes

663
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,200
like, none of these issues are
so black and white.

664
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,400
And I think that's why this is
harm.

665
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,440
We can't just be like, AI is bad
and a problem and we can't be

666
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,520
like, it's good and no problem.
Same with being promiscuous or,

667
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,760
you know, any of the other types
of conversations.

668
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,640
The fact that our technology has
gotten so advanced that it's a

669
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,000
part of that conversation is
really kind of interesting,

670
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,560
which we can kind of shelf for
now.

671
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,840
The part that I think I wanted
to add, this is kind of where

672
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,960
the issue becomes a little
spiritual for me because in my

673
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,360
half as a meditator, you know,
there's a couple of really deep

674
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,080
things that I've learned from
the process of meditation.

675
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,600
But like, you know, I'm no guru,
but if I had to stab one thing,

676
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,240
that might be a recipe for a
happy life with for people in

677
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,840
general.
My best guess would be like

678
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,680
learning to befriend discomfort,
like being comfortable with

679
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,120
being uncomfortable, which
includes being comfortable with

680
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,960
pain and being comfortable with
not knowing and being

681
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,440
comfortable with confusion and
all the challenging emotions you

682
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,440
know that we might face in our
human lives.

683
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,840
The way that our technology has
shaped itself in the past 20-30

684
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,560
years is it has served up
comfortable illusions for us in

685
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,400
almost every area of life.
Right.

686
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,000
Porn is a comfortable illusion
of sex.

687
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,040
You know the YouTube podcasts
are like a comfortable illusion

688
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,560
of hanging out with your
friends.

689
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,480
AI is a comfortable illusion of
a conversation.

690
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,520
Social media can give you a
comfortable illusion of being

691
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,760
popular and engaged.
You know, games give you a

692
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,800
comfortable illusion of play,
but you don't actually have to

693
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,400
negotiate the play or figure out
the rules and deal with

694
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,640
conflict.
And So what tends to happen is

695
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,240
that the deeper someone goes
into these worlds, the harder it

696
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,679
becomes when they collide with
the realities of actual, real

697
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,360
life.
And so it's totally fine to

698
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,960
engage in all of these
technologies.

699
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,000
There's no problem.
But the thing that we have to

700
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,159
monitor from an almost spiritual
lens.

701
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:19,239
But if you're not a spiritual
person that at least from the

702
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,920
lens of mindfulness and
awareness and like groundedness

703
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,560
and reality is like this
technology is, it's influencing

704
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,560
my ability to exist in the real
world, influencing my ability to

705
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,320
wait.
I think, Josh, that was a great

706
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,880
example, right?
That is a perfect, perfect

707
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,920
example of this at play, which
is you can use this technology

708
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,760
fine, but the more you use it,
you might find it way hard to

709
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,040
wait for things.
And as a parent, I see that with

710
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,360
my kid, if he plays video games
first thing in the morning, the

711
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,520
rest of his day feels super
boring.

712
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,280
But if the end of the day, we
have a great time and it's

713
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,520
joyful.
And I've had like some amazing

714
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,080
connection moments playing
classic NES games from the 90s

715
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,800
with him.
Him showing me some of the games

716
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,600
that he's playing, He's like
showing off his farm in Stardew

717
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,040
Valley.
And I think it would be a

718
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,840
mistake to just like let him
play all day and find life

719
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,280
boring.
But I also think it would be a

720
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,280
mistake to become like a brutal
dictator of a father and be

721
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,000
like, you're not allowed to
enjoy video games because I love

722
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,640
video games too.
And I think it's the same thing

723
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,640
with promiscuity or using AI to
have a conversation with

724
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,800
friends.
Like it's unfortunately, you

725
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,480
know, I wish I wrote, I wrote
something like this in my book.

726
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,920
Like, I wish it were not the
case that we had to be this

727
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,360
vigilant, you know, around the
technology that is ubiquitous in

728
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,440
our lives.
But as far as I'm concerned,

729
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,520
unless something dramatically
changes in the incentives of our

730
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,520
economy and tech companies and
the way this works, it is simply

731
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,240
the price of admission for the
21st century.

732
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,560
If you care about your
well-being, that you have to be

733
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,960
aware and mindful about the
impact these technologies are

734
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,320
having on you.
But you can't turn into the like

735
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,760
opposite, which is that like,
fun is bad.

736
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,320
And none of this can be fun.
And like, you shouldn't be kids,

737
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:56,440
you shouldn't be playing video
games.

738
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,200
You should never talk to AI.
You should never use AI to help

739
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,440
you with your homework.
There's ways to use AI to deepen

740
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,280
your learning, obviously, right?
So this is the nuance that we're

741
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,880
all struggling with
collectively, I think.

742
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Yeah.
And, and I think we have to be

743
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,240
creative too, because one of the
things that I'm really

744
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:13,840
passionate about is language.
So mom and Dad, you can feel

745
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,240
better that you got a good ROI
on your investment in getting a

746
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:18,920
a degree in French literature.
Sure.

747
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,040
Sorry, I just had to throw.
That something so cuddles are

748
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,520
not that like framing of
parenting with an ROI that just

749
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,440
feels so apro yeah, but.
I know they're listening, but

750
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,920
The thing is, love you mom and
dad.

751
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,600
But The thing is, no.
I just bring that up because for

752
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,960
me, I find so fascinating
because of the lack of limits,

753
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,640
you know, with, with
linguistics, because I mean,

754
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,000
this thing literally knows every
language.

755
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,920
It's even better than Duolingo.
Sorry, Duolingo.

756
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,960
But The thing is, there's like
Duolingo, I, I don't know if you

757
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,960
guys are aware of this, but I
was trying to learn Tagalog just

758
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,640
because I, I deal with a lot of
folks who are Filipino speaking.

759
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,720
Duolingo doesn't have Tagalog.
I mean, what, what the, what

760
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:01,280
right.
So I'm just bringing that up

761
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,440
because that's a use case that I
found to be very enriching for

762
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,560
me because there's the whole
notion of neuroplastic, right?

763
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,040
And I think when you do a new
skill, whether it's learning a

764
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,400
new instrument or learning how
to cook, or in my case, learning

765
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,560
a foreign language, it's like
you can feel the neurons, right?

766
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,320
You can say, what is it?
The neurons that fire together,

767
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,200
wire together.
That's something that I find

768
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,240
fascinating is the implications
for of AI on neuroplasticity.

769
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,200
Because again, if we're using it
as a tool, I think about it like

770
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,880
a knife, right?
I mean, a knife can be used to

771
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,880
cut vegetables to feed your
family or some more sinister

772
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,680
topics that we don't need to go
into here.

773
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,280
But the point is, AI is just
like that.

774
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,880
I mean, it's just, and for me,
like my son is really into

775
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,480
soccer, right?
And so one thing I love about

776
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,400
that is it's such a global
sport.

777
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,600
And, you know, he wants, and I'm
encouraging him in this, he

778
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,480
wants to play for Barcelona when
he grows up, reaching for the

779
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,160
stars, trying to keep his feet
on the ground.

780
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,840
But the point is, I'm like to
get better at soccer to make it

781
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,280
a more rich experience.
I think it would be helpful to

782
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,320
learn Spanish.
And so like when he's watching

783
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,560
the games, he can understand the
commentary because they're

784
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,240
speaking 20 million miles a
minute is like the only thing it

785
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,440
can understand is gold.
But then it's like, so one of

786
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,320
the things that I got out of my,
my agent is we started talking

787
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,760
in Spanish.
I had Evan in the car with me

788
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,000
and I would ask him, you know, I
was like, oh, Preguntalaya, open

789
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,520
AI, blah, blah, blah.
And so he was a little nervous

790
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,600
at first, but he started getting
a little bit more comfortable

791
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,360
because, you know, again, open
AI kind of calibrates based on

792
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,280
what you're feeding it.
So I would say, yeah, I, I think

793
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,880
you're 100% right, Jay, in terms
of not not taking this black or

794
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,880
white perspective and, and
really just sort of doing

795
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,840
everything with discernment and
just seeing open AI as a tool.

796
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,120
Because I have friends, like I
have a good friend of mine.

797
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,200
He's a, he's a writer.
I won't say the the outlet he's

798
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,480
with because I don't want to
shame him.

799
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,040
But the point is, I asked him
about open AI, just AI in

800
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,440
general.
I said, because, you know,

801
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,640
obviously each one has different
purposes or use cases.

802
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,800
I don't know if you guys have
heard this as well, but everyone

803
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,000
who's in writing, they said that
Claude is really more is better

804
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,520
suited to that.
So I don't know if you guys have

805
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,720
heard that Claude AI, but I
brought it up and he literally

806
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,800
he gave him the word is
apoplectic.

807
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,960
Like he literally just started
frothing at the mouth saying

808
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,640
open eye is terrible, blah,
blah, blah.

809
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,880
And I just think that that black
or white thinking where it's

810
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,280
just like, oh, this stuff is the
end of humanity.

811
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,040
And, you know, we're basically
going to this Orwellian

812
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,320
hellscape.
That's that's Cray Cray.

813
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,160
Yeah, the, the irony is that a
lot of a lot of tech is

814
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,960
polarizing conversations like
that.

815
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,360
But I can put a quick finer
point on this, which is so I

816
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,560
helped start and I'm an advisor
and my brother is a founder of a

817
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,560
company called Feel Good Games.
And we have a product that's

818
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,440
called Little Magic Stories and
it's an AI product for kids.

819
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,400
It's very, very early, but you
can play it for free right now.

820
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,880
But it's an example that anyone
could go with your kid an

821
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520
experience.
Like it's all about the context.

822
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,680
So as a designer, what I've been
really interested in around this

823
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,160
project is like, can we design A
context?

824
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,400
Like because if you just send
your kid to ChatGPT

825
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,000
unsupervised, that's a little
bit dicey.

826
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,440
But if you can design A context
and I think we're targeting like

827
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,400
7 to 9 year olds, like maybe 5
to 10 year olds some, somewhere

828
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,040
in that range right now.
And it's like the idea would be

829
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,840
like, let's design A-frame where
the guardrails are very clear

830
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,520
and appropriate for this age
where the context isn't just ask

831
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,640
anything.
It's like an imagination.

832
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:25,160
Good story, use your
imagination.

833
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,200
Let's aim it to promote
literacy.

834
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,880
Let's calibrate to reading
level.

835
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,080
Let's target the stories to help
build imagination.

836
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,040
Let's gamify the more creative
and kind and brave prompts that

837
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,400
people are offering.
And we're seeing kids engage

838
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,200
with this.
And it's a very positive

839
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,440
interaction with AI.
We just had a research session

840
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,040
yesterday where the parent came
in with exactly that tone like

841
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,760
this AI is bad for humanity.
I'm really skeptical about this

842
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,640
product that we're about to try.
And then Fast forward 20 minutes

843
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,640
later and they're sitting with
their kid and the kid is

844
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,560
laughing and they're laughing
and they're kind of realizing,

845
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,560
oh, like, you know, if you put
the constraints on, actually

846
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,400
this can be really powerful.
And I think it's exactly what

847
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,400
we're talking about.
Like the general way we're

848
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,680
thinking is like, oh, AI, this
amorphous technology we created

849
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,600
is bad, right?
But that would be like saying

850
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,800
like GPS satellites are bad.
It's.

851
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,960
Like cars are bad because.
If you're using them to spy on

852
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,920
people, that's not good.
And if you're using them to help

853
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,560
you get to your family's house,
then that's good, right?

854
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,200
So how are we using this
technology is really a big

855
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,800
question.
And of course, how are we

856
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,240
creating it, which is a big part
of a conversation too, right?

857
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:31,240
So there are clear examples of
building that context directly

858
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,720
into the system, which I think
these tech companies need to be

859
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,200
thinking a little bit more.
I just want to say I appreciate

860
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,720
that this is like a, it sounds
like it's like a parent and

861
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:43,000
child type of interactive.
I think that is really special.

862
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,880
I think I feel like not to get
really deep and morbid and you

863
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,280
know, in this, but I feel like
these, you know, platforms

864
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,320
sometimes take us into a very
solo sort of play solo life, you

865
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:00,120
know, individualism and sort of
takes us away from sometimes

866
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,480
reality, right?
Sometimes an escape, like you

867
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,320
said, sometimes it's a beautiful
escape.

868
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,960
Sometimes it's just something to
procrastinate with, whatever

869
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,040
that is.
No judgement.

870
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,560
I get it, we all do it.
But I think there's something to

871
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,280
be said about we are starting to
see people kind of wanting to be

872
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,160
siloing off a little bit.
You know, you kind of see it

873
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,280
even in like the dating world
and stuff.

874
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,600
I see it with some of my clients
who are, you know, trying to

875
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,840
date and things and like it's
like, oh, maybe not.

876
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,080
Maybe I'll just be a solo, you
know, parent and that's fine or

877
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,560
solo partner or whatever.
That is all that's fine.

878
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,240
But it's just interesting to me,
you know, not needing a reliance

879
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,360
is the end of this at some
point.

880
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,040
Not me.
I mean, reliance on anyone.

881
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,080
That's the extreme level.
I my mind just goes there or

882
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,840
went there.
That's, that's fear, right?

883
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,280
Like it's what we're talking
about before.

884
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,720
Like, I think a lot of people,
they, the technology can give

885
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:51,400
you this opportunity to turn
inward and give in to the fear

886
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,360
of how hard it is to put
yourself out there.

887
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,560
And it's like, there are
definitely people who want to be

888
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,960
alone and there's good reasons
for that.

889
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,200
But now there's these reasons,
which is like, I'm just going to

890
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,920
talk to my AI girlfriend because
talking to real women is hard.

891
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,320
And that's just tragic.
It's like the movie.

892
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,360
Was that movie her?
Wasn't there a movie?

893
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,240
Spike Jones, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Talking to each

894
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:11,760
other is hard.
It always has been.

895
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,000
It's not anyone's fault.
But like hiding away in your AI

896
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,800
bot, like, you know, it's not,
it's not necessarily going to

897
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,720
lead to that lasting
fulfillment.

898
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:22,000
Sometimes you have to climb a
mountain to feel the feeling at

899
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,560
the top of it, and you can live
a neutral life where you're not

900
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,480
feeling the peak of the mountain
or the valley.

901
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,960
I just don't, you know, I think
the ship is made to be sailed,

902
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,560
right?
And that's why I appreciate if

903
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,240
there's, you know, the apps that
you're talking about or the, you

904
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:36,800
know, the one that you're
building, working on.

905
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,480
And that sort of promotes even
like more of that family, you

906
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,800
know, kind of dynamic for
parents and kids, at least at

907
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,200
the very least, or like spout,
you know, couples or

908
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,520
relationships, something you can
do with a friend.

909
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,280
I think that would be very
fascinating to me.

910
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,600
I feel that also promotes that
psychological well-being of

911
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,080
attunement with each other.
We're going together.

912
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,760
That's really important, right?
With human connection is that

913
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,640
oxytocin moment coming together,
serotonin, whatever it is, those

914
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,000
feel good sort of chemicals that
come when we're with someone

915
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,640
doing something together.
I think like if that's some of

916
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,760
the future of AI, think that's
really be really positive too.

917
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,120
Yeah.
I feel like in that lens, I

918
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,640
mean, maybe we want to promote
more promiscuity.

919
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,880
You got to promise you to on the
brain, man.

920
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,280
I just thought it was funny that
you brought it up.

921
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,720
Yeah, well, I, no, I mean, just
to in all seriousness, I do

922
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,480
think it's a concern because
it's just like, you know, when

923
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,320
you, when you are so used to
getting what you want and you're

924
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,440
so used to that gratification,
real life sucks.

925
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,600
I mean, real life really friggin
sucks because it's just like,

926
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,600
you know, you're not giving me
the answer I need in

927
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,080
interactions with friends or
family sometimes, like I'll,

928
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,720
I'm, I'm pretty terse in my
texts.

929
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,880
I don't know if it's because I'm
an empath or whatever the label

930
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,800
is, but it's just like, I don't
want to bombard somebody with my

931
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,840
shit.
You know, I just like basically,

932
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,560
you know, so, so I don't
overload them, but you know, if

933
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,120
they want a response, I'll be,
I'll keep my responses very

934
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,800
short and sweet just because I I
don't want to, if it's going to

935
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,440
be a more prolonged discussion,
pick up the phone or let's do a

936
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,240
zoom or whatever.
But my point is ChatGPT doesn't

937
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:15,080
roll that way.
ChatGPT for somebody who needs

938
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,240
that constant response.
And, you know, this is a this is

939
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,600
an episode.
So in and of itself, it would be

940
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,640
interesting maybe in a couple
years to see what the rates of

941
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,480
narcissism are in the world
after ChatGPT.

942
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,200
Am I right?
Because it's like, if you think

943
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,280
about it, if you're somebody who
needs validation, if you're

944
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,640
somebody who needs to be told
going back to the sycophantic

945
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,600
angle that you're the shit, you
know, you're a visionary, you're

946
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,960
whatever you're going to take
over the world.

947
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,720
Yeah.
I mean, ChatGPT will give you

948
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,920
that all day long, right.
So anyways, that's that's one of

949
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,600
those, you know, sort of
bookmark it.

950
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,080
We can.
We can return to it later.

951
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,280
I I think double double clicking
on that just dead.

952
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,000
Hey, there's metaphors.
I was just you literally, Jake,

953
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,040
you're in my head.
Literally when you talked about

954
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,320
metaphors, double clicking is
the one you know you're talking

955
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:01,640
about desktop.
Yeah, go ahead.

956
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,520
Sorry, I got really excited.
Yeah.

957
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,680
You know, the sycophantic AI,
which I know we talked about

958
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
yesterday, but just to to sort
of it's, it's related to that

959
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,960
RLHF when these things are.
And you read my mind again.

960
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,160
Literally.
I was going to ask you that

961
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:14,240
next.
I love that it came up

962
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:15,320
organically.
Sorry.

963
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,360
I'll shut up now.
Go ahead.

964
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,720
You know, people think of AI as
like, you know, but somehow it's

965
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,160
trained on the Internet, really,
it has been fed certain data,

966
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,840
not all data, and it has then
been meticulously trained often

967
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,200
by people in the global S to
tell you what you want to hear.

968
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:35,080
And so, like Josh, if we take
the example you gave of like,

969
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,200
you know, a teenage girl talking
about whether about their

970
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,520
boyfriend, right?
It's like you just asked me one

971
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,120
question.
You know, I think my boyfriend

972
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:43,720
is is a real jerk.
Like what do you think?

973
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:46,000
And it's going to give you this
advice immediately.

974
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,440
And, but and that feels like a,
a real interaction, but it's not

975
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,280
right.
You're actually interacting with

976
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,800
a algorithm that was trained on
the conceptual data of the human

977
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,480
Internet, which does not include
a lot of human data,

978
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,400
consciousness, love, kindness,
awareness.

979
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,080
That's not in the training data.
Also, it's been tuned to tell

980
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,160
that girl exactly what she wants
to hear.

981
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,960
So if you actually asked that
girl to have a multi part

982
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,840
conversation, it might sound
something like, Hey, you know, I

983
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,560
think my boyfriend is a real
jerk.

984
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,360
Like, what do you think?
And then they'll be like, you're

985
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,120
right, he's a jerk, you're
amazing.

986
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,680
You shouldn't spend time with
this guy.

987
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,440
You should dump his ass and then
she might reply and say, well,

988
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:23,720
he actually he's not a jerk,
though.

989
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:26,000
He's like a nice guy.
And then they I'll be like great

990
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,200
point Actually.
You should stay with him and you

991
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,400
should marry him.
And like, that's kind of what I

992
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,920
mean by sycophantic AI.
It's because it's if a real

993
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,640
human behave like that, like if
I came on this podcast today and

994
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,440
you're like, what do you think
of this question?

995
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,160
That's just a wonderful
question.

996
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,920
Here you are.
What an absolute question.

997
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,000
What a brilliant podcast host
you are.

998
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,520
This is just the greatest thing
ever.

999
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,040
And it's just you.
That's what AI is doing to us.

1000
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,760
And so I think they're that
narcissism is a real concern.

1001
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,440
And you know, people always talk
about kids.

1002
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,120
I also worry about the elderly
who get trapped into these loops

1003
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,040
and have no one to talk to.
But fundamentally, you know,

1004
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,200
again, it's about how you use
the AI and how we find real

1005
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,040
connection in life.
And I've been recently writing a

1006
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,080
post on this, which I'll
probably post next week,

1007
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,720
probably in time for this
episode to go live.

1008
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:16,080
But I've been thinking about the
word soul as a part of like the

1009
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,400
framework through which we might
evaluate how we use AI.

1010
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,880
And I use it not necessarily in
the way a guru or a pastor

1011
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,480
might, more the way a musician
might.

1012
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,280
Like I'm a musician and I think
about soul music and music that

1013
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,120
is like from the heart.
Sure, right?

1014
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,320
Like people can make all kinds
of fun dance music for a party

1015
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,160
and that's great.
But I've always been drawn to

1016
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,800
music that feels like you're
hearing someone's story.

1017
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,640
And I think when we use AI and
also for my peers and

1018
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,920
technology, when we build AI, we
need some sort of lens upon like

1019
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,680
how do we decide what's worth
building?

1020
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,760
Because now we can just snap our
fingers and build anything.

1021
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,120
So what I'm kind of coming
around, especially in the

1022
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,240
categories that we're talking
about, can we evaluate this use

1023
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:57,000
of AI, whether it's going to
deepen a heart to heart human

1024
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,080
connection or whether it's going
to read more distance.

1025
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,720
And I'll give you a really
simple example.

1026
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,200
You're talking about texting
people or emailing people,

1027
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,200
right?
If I use AI to just be like

1028
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,120
write an e-mail to Nikhil
thanking him for having me on

1029
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,680
this podcast and it just spits
out a reply and I send it to

1030
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,200
you.
First of all, the fact that I

1031
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,000
spent less time generating that,
then it's going to take you to

1032
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,440
read that is like a red flag
because I'm asking you basically

1033
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,440
to cipher through this vague
noise full of M dashes and weird

1034
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,080
metaphors and dash and try to
like find me in it.

1035
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,680
And you're probably, you're not
going to find me in it and it's

1036
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,200
going to create distance between
them.

1037
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,520
Interesting.
But that doesn't mean we should

1038
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,280
never use AI.
If I say, hey, what are like a

1039
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,840
few things that I should say to
Nikhil in my thank you e-mail?

1040
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,520
And it gives me a few bullet
points and I copy paste them and

1041
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,080
I edit them and I take some time
to turn that into an e-mail

1042
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,800
that's you're probably still
going to find me in that.

1043
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,880
And it's going to draw some
connection, take it even

1044
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,160
further.
And this is what I've been doing

1045
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,440
kind of with AI is like, what if
I hit record and record a voice

1046
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,880
note and you can kind of hear my
voice and the AI you a bit of a

1047
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:00,880
summary of that.
But there's like the human

1048
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,600
piece, you know, there's ways we
can use this technology to

1049
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,480
deepen connection.
And I think that sole idea goes

1050
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,520
to the things we create as well.
If you're creating a therapy bot

1051
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,360
like Josh, you've probably been
thinking about this.

1052
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,640
I'd love to hear your thoughts
on AI therapy, like therapists

1053
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,520
or AI.
But it's like there's a version

1054
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,520
where that AI is supposed to be
replacing you, which I feel like

1055
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,320
is not a good idea.
It's bringing more distance

1056
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,200
between us.
But there's a version where it's

1057
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,760
sending people to you, right?
There's a version where it's

1058
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,120
helping people, people find the
resources that you and your

1059
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,320
peers have created in clarifying
a message.

1060
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,480
And that feels like it has more
soul in it to me.

1061
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,920
So I've been playing around with
this because I don't think it's

1062
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,920
necessarily impossible for us to
avoid Nikhil's your, your

1063
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,360
narcissistic feature state.
But you know, I don't see the

1064
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,080
incentives lined up to, to fix
that anytime soon.

1065
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,120
But I don't think it's
necessarily impossible for us to

1066
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,760
use AI more skillfully.
Well, one thing, one thing, if I

1067
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,640
may, I, I think sometimes what
can be helpful is sort of taking

1068
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,440
the other extreme of the, the
side of, of the spectrum.

1069
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,680
When I, what I mean by that is
because AI is so tech heavy and

1070
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,920
it's so frictionless, something
I've been doing is actually

1071
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,120
intentionally increasing the
friction and how I consume

1072
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,960
things like music.
So, you know, back in college

1073
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,160
or, you know, I have a lot of
friends, they have vinyl

1074
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,520
records.
I mean, vinyl's cool, but first

1075
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,680
of all, it's, you know, you get
like 4 songs on one side and

1076
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,520
it's like, I ain't nobody got
time for that.

1077
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,640
So what I've done is I've
actually gotten CD players and

1078
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,840
I'm listening to CD's and I find
that that's honestly, I know

1079
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,200
that's I'm, I'm sounding like a
boomer, but work, work with me

1080
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,040
here.
So The thing is, I'm thinking of

1081
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,400
like there's a album Rolling
Stones Sticky Fingers, right?

1082
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,120
That's like one of my favorite
albums.

1083
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,240
And I'm just thinking about the
concept of consuming it on

1084
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,720
Spotify.
Now, obviously I can just get

1085
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:48,000
all the songs Spotify will
generate like a playlist based

1086
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,880
on that.
It'll throw in some doors, it'll

1087
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,520
sew in some Van Morrison,
whatever.

1088
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,800
But the point is with ACD, I'm
very confined to it.

1089
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,880
So sometimes I'll walk around
the block with like my Discman,

1090
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,200
listen to that album and I'll
just take a trip down memory

1091
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,760
lane.
You know, I'm thinking about

1092
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,040
this song Moonlight Mile.
I'm thinking about, you know,

1093
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,920
back in Ohio shoveling snow.
I don't see that stuff anymore

1094
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,960
because I'm in San Diego, ha ha.
But the point is it's like I

1095
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,160
just encourage people to take a
more intentional and deliberate

1096
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,320
use of things that we take for
granted because it's just like,

1097
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,880
you know, books are a prime
example.

1098
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,760
I don't think I've heard like
CDs are CD players are hard to

1099
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,800
find.
Like I had to do some real to go

1100
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,000
to a lot of thrift stores and I
think I got this one off Amazon.

1101
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,240
But my point is, I encourage
anyone who's listening just to

1102
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:34,720
go the other extreme that will
train your muscles or your

1103
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:36,840
gratification, delayed
gratification muscles.

1104
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,640
So you're you're not sort of
this slave to AI.

1105
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,160
Does that make sense?
I don't know what your guys

1106
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,760
thoughts are on that I.
Mean it it does.

1107
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,520
It's a hard sell.
Yeah, it's not for everyone.

1108
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,320
I agree.
Disk man.

1109
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,080
Yeah, man, I'm I'm old school.
I'm an uncle.

1110
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,240
What do you want from me?
Yeah, I mean, it's it that's a

1111
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:56,680
hard one.
I mean, the delayed

1112
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,200
gratification piece, people
don't even know they're going

1113
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,120
through that.
That's yeah, there's no presence

1114
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,560
with it.
It's just happening.

1115
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,360
It's like autopilot, like, oh,
Yep, even for me, like, oh, my

1116
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:08,920
computer's not working.
What the heck?

1117
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,440
You know, this is, I've paid
this, this amount of money for

1118
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,040
it Yesterday.
It wasn't charging fast enough.

1119
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,520
Had a mini meltdown, you know,
before our recall yesterday.

1120
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,320
So it's just, you know, we have
these new and higher

1121
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,120
expectations.
You're right, we should be

1122
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,400
bringing awareness to this.
And I think that's what one of

1123
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,160
these these conversations are
about, right?

1124
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,800
But everyone has to kind of, I
guess, realize that for yourself

1125
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,840
to, to recognize how that's
playing into your relationships.

1126
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,000
How is it playing into how you
interface with technology, with

1127
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,200
AI?
And I think it kind of goes to

1128
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,960
the idea of when do we know when
like tech or AI or something is

1129
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:52,520
sort of interfering with like
growth or interfering with Peace

1130
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,760
of Mind, whatever it is.
And I think it's Jay's

1131
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,600
absolutely right.
Like these tools are here to be

1132
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,360
used with some our own
discretion.

1133
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,040
And that's why kids it's you
don't just release them to

1134
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,880
ChatGPT world.
They have to have some sort of

1135
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,600
parental supervision or some
kind of support around it.

1136
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,040
Guardrails.
Yeah.

1137
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,000
And so The thing is it, it we're
kind of, this is hindsight's

1138
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,160
2020, I feel, because
everybody's in it now.

1139
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:18,760
And it's like, how do we pull
back?

1140
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,640
From it, yeah, Jay, how, how do
you to, to that van, how do you,

1141
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,240
how do you sort of regulate
that?

1142
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:28,160
What are some best practices you
can recommend just to sort of

1143
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:33,320
contain the spread of AI and
sort of overtaking your mind

1144
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,000
basically?
What are some obviously you

1145
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,360
mentioned like meditation, but
maybe if you can maybe either

1146
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,480
double click on that or some
other techniques?

1147
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:42,280
The whole the whole thing that
I've been bringing is actually

1148
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,040
bringing it in a more nuanced
way, bringing the skills that

1149
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,760
meditation and mindfulness teach
to these different areas.

1150
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,680
And So what I hear when you're
talking about your disk man and

1151
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,480
in general, what we're talking
about, even with little magic

1152
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,840
stories as an example, compared
to just the open field of, of

1153
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,200
ChatGPT versus a more, you know,
contained experience.

1154
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,240
I think of this idea of
constraint, right?

1155
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,440
Which is like as a creative
person, I know that constraint

1156
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,640
breeds creativity.
I like to play the Blues

1157
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,040
sometimes because it's the same
exact progression every time.

1158
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,080
And you really have to be
creative within that, which is

1159
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,160
really fun and can create some
very interesting music.

1160
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,760
Similarly, as a designer,
setting constraints when I'm

1161
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,240
doing a creative workshop is
really, really, really key.

1162
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,360
Here's the thing.
I think there's a lot of people

1163
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,600
out there who are just using
technology without thinking at

1164
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,720
all about the impacts it's
having.

1165
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,200
And for those people, like when
they come across my office, the

1166
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,520
conversation is really about
just like, let's just find some

1167
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,600
constraints here.
We need to set some boundaries.

1168
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,560
But the challenges, and this is
true, this is a kind of

1169
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,040
undercurrent of our whole
conversation today so far is

1170
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,320
like, we don't need the guilt
and the shame to be a part of

1171
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,280
this conversation.
We don't need to be guilting

1172
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,560
ourselves for using our phones
or for getting mad because our

1173
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,800
computer didn't work.
Like those are emotions.

1174
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,520
It's frustrating and it's OK
that it's frustrating.

1175
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:56,760
We don't have to guilt
ourselves.

1176
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,200
And certainly we don't have to
shame our kids for loving video

1177
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,920
games or wanting to be on social
media with their friends.

1178
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,280
They don't need more shame,
right?

1179
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,520
I think what we really want to
find a way is to set the

1180
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,320
boundaries smartly, but with a
positive frame.

1181
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,040
And the concept that I kind of
invoke for this in the book is

1182
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,080
ritual, which is like ritual is
a positive reframe around

1183
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,520
constraints and boundaries.
So I'll give you an example of a

1184
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,280
ritual I have.
So I only watch one show or

1185
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,880
movie per day.
That's just something I've

1186
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,280
decided is good for me to not
just like, you know, watch 12

1187
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,160
episodes straight or just like
lose myself in TV in the middle

1188
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:33,560
of the day.
Yeah, things like that.

1189
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,680
But I don't just set it like a
kind of paternal limit,

1190
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,320
paternalistic limit on myself.
I treat it as an opportunity to

1191
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,240
also enjoy the ritual of it.
So I also think, how can I make

1192
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,200
that one episode or movie I
watch like more fun, right?

1193
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,880
So how can I be really
intentional about what I choose

1194
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,720
to watch?
How can I like, put my, the

1195
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:54,960
distractions away, pop some
popcorns, invite my wife to join

1196
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,280
me and make it a kind of magic
moment, a beautiful ritual.

1197
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,720
In our evening, we finished
putting our son to bed.

1198
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,600
We go watch a show.
We got some popcorn, we're

1199
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,200
chatting, we're hanging out.
And it actually catches some of

1200
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,480
that magic that I had.
Like I actually, well, my first

1201
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,880
job was at a movie theater and
we got to watch the early

1202
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,000
Cannes, like when they would
send the projections.

1203
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,880
I remember Gladiator
specifically.

1204
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,280
When you say Cannes you mean
like pre pre production?

1205
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,240
Oh OK I got you.
I thought you meant the Cannes,

1206
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:21,920
the Cannes Film Festival.
Sorry.

1207
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:23,360
OK, Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1208
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:23,960
OK.
No, no.

1209
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,640
No, no, I was not a Cannes Film
Festival as a child, that would

1210
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:28,000
be.
Cool.

1211
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,480
That would be cool.
Yeah, go ahead.

1212
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,080
Sorry.
So they they basically send the

1213
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,160
film canisters on the Wednesday
and the and the release date is

1214
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,440
Friday.
And so when we got them early on

1215
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,520
Thursday, we would have like an
internal staff party and we'd

1216
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,640
all get to watch Gladiator
before it came out.

1217
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,720
And it was like a magic fun
moment.

1218
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,640
And it's like an example of the
feeling that I now get when I

1219
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,640
pop that popcorn and I kind of
watch my one show for the day.

1220
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,920
And the same can be true about
AI and social media and games

1221
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,360
and checking your work e-mail
and all the things that can

1222
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,160
stress us out.
It's like, how can we set those

1223
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,000
constraints?
But like your disk man, you've

1224
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,520
chosen The Rolling Stones, going
for a walk with the technology

1225
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,000
you had when you were younger,
and you're getting some of this

1226
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,880
feeling.
So it's not that jokes, you have

1227
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,400
to go get a disk man.
I think it's the deeper

1228
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,160
principle of like, what are the
different categories of

1229
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,920
technology where we can build in
some positive rituals that

1230
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,920
really, you know, simultaneously
set boundaries around the

1231
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,320
problematic aspects while
rekindling the like love and joy

1232
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,840
that we can experience with
technology, The meaning, the

1233
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,360
purpose, the connection.
I think where it gets dangerous

1234
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,520
is to use the mountain metaphor
from before.

1235
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,440
A lot of these technologies are
like putting on AVR headset

1236
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,000
where you can be at the top of
the mountain even though you're

1237
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,200
not really there.
And a lot of people would are,

1238
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,680
are basically out there being
like, why would I climb the

1239
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:41,760
mountain when I can just put
this VR headset on?

1240
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,920
That's a spiritual
misunderstanding about what

1241
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,360
makes humans.
Humans are happy when they put

1242
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,960
the work into climbing the
mountain and they earn it.

1243
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,040
And I think a lot of people are
struggling because they're

1244
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,520
getting all this pleasure, this
instant gratification without

1245
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,960
really earning it.
And therefore, the, the the

1246
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,400
enjoyment is very fleeting.
The connection, the meaning, the

1247
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,000
purpose doesn't come the way
they hope it would because

1248
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:02,800
they're not actually connecting
with people.

1249
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,760
They're not actually
accomplishing the things they

1250
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:05,600
say they are.
Yeah.

1251
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,080
It's just all a big illusion.
And that's, I think, what we all

1252
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,360
have to be careful about.
Yeah, well, no, that's you make

1253
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,520
a great point.
I love that mountain concept

1254
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,440
because to you know, again, I'm
I'm sort of making these mental

1255
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,200
bookmarks about things that I
want to follow up on in five

1256
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,480
years.
So I'm my future self is going

1257
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:23,080
to tell me something
interesting.

1258
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,640
But what would also be
interesting to see is the

1259
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,920
satisfaction rates of trips, you
know, around the world because I

1260
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,880
felt this myself because I went
to Japan a year ago.

1261
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,160
My son is obsessed with Japanese
culture and this was a trip of a

1262
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,960
lifetime for him.
But I to be honest, I mean, at

1263
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,680
the time it was, I was going
through some massive burnout and

1264
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,840
just life was just kind of
kicking my ass.

1265
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,440
So that played into it a little
bit.

1266
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,640
But part of me was just like,
OK, you know, I can, I can go to

1267
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:53,040
this beautiful temple in Kyoto.
I can spend the time and blah,

1268
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,520
blah, blah, I just pull it up on
my, on my iPad and I'm just

1269
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,280
like, what's, what's the
difference?

1270
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,840
You know, I'm just bringing that
up because it's like, it would

1271
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,720
really be interesting because
when I had travelled, I think

1272
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:08,360
back in 99 when I went to India
and we had to like Aurangabad,

1273
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,160
Ajanta, Laura, all these places.
I was, my mind was just blown

1274
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,720
because it was like when you
think about technology at that

1275
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,640
time, it was very primitive.
You had dial up, you had that

1276
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,680
you've got mail bullshit from
AOL, right Where it's just like,

1277
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:22,960
you know, they.
Friggin movie of Tom Hanks.

1278
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,840
And but like the point is, it's
like technology was just kind of

1279
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,240
this quaint thing.
It was this curiosity, right?

1280
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,600
And now it's become so
ubiquitous where it's just like

1281
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,920
it's it's in every facet of
everything we do.

1282
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,040
Friggin QR codes have replaced
menus.

1283
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,120
That's that sucks, right?
I mean, there's something nice

1284
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,280
about a menu, right?
Sorry to be like a crank

1285
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,280
crotchety old boomer.
But the point is, going back to

1286
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,720
what I was saying, that is
something that's going to be an

1287
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,280
interesting downstream like
trend to look at is just what

1288
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,400
are people satisfaction rates
with before it?

1289
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,120
Hold on one second.
I'm going to grab something.

1290
01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:00,560
So I don't know if you guys can
see this is travel is the only

1291
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,520
thing you buy that makes you
richer.

1292
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,440
If you guys, and this is a plug
for my friend, his name is

1293
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,560
Freeman Fung.
He was a guest on the show.

1294
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,480
He wrote a book called Travel to
transform.

1295
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,720
And I'm just bringing all that
up because it's like travel is

1296
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,880
really, that's something you
can't simulate through AI where

1297
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,000
it's just like, or VR, whatever
you want to say.

1298
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,560
Because it's like, that is such
a personal experience.

1299
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,000
The sights, the sounds, the
smells, and someone like me

1300
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,320
who's really into languages.
I mean, there's there's nothing

1301
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,640
to replicate that.
There's certain melting pots

1302
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,760
like Queens or certain towns
where there are like lots of

1303
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,240
different cultures.
I'm just bringing that up.

1304
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,400
It would be very interesting to
see like if we've removed the

1305
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,680
friction of something like
travel where you just have to

1306
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,240
get like a triptych from AAA.
Remember those things, those

1307
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,760
folding maps now it's just so
frictionless that what is the

1308
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,480
satisfaction rate for immersive
experiences like traveling to

1309
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,400
Japan or going to or something
like that when it can be

1310
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,960
simulated?
So yeah, a lot of a lot of

1311
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:57,800
things we got to circle back on
in five years.

1312
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,000
I really like this.
And what you're saying, I think

1313
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,600
is really alive.
And it's not even just about

1314
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,240
travel.
Like, I think this is where one

1315
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,880
of the things that I think I've
most taken from being a

1316
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,920
meditation person and just like,
being that guy who just like,

1317
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:15,360
hey, I'm gonna go away for a
week and people expect that to

1318
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,480
mean you're gonna go get fucked
up on a beach.

1319
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,640
And I'm like, actually, I'm
going to a monastery.

1320
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,360
Yeah, right in silence for seven
days.

1321
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,320
Monks don't have much of A
tolerance, right?

1322
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,120
People are just like, why would
you do that?

1323
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,360
And I always like for anyone
who's listening is like, why

1324
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,200
would you do that?
I always say whatever you think

1325
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,560
is going to be the challenge
with that is probably true for

1326
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,160
day one.
So like if you think it's going

1327
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,960
to be really boring or you can't
even imagine just sitting alone

1328
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:42,320
with your thoughts, you're
right.

1329
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,840
That's going to be the hardest
part on day one, sure.

1330
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,160
But day 2 and onward, things are
going to change because as a

1331
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,320
human being, you're adaptable.
And so you're not just going to

1332
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,080
spend seven days or 10 days or
whatever just sitting there

1333
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:55,440
being like, I'm bored, I'm
bored, I'm bored.

1334
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:56,840
You're something's going to
happen.

1335
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,160
And there's only one way to find
out.

1336
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,120
So that's my little plug for
retreats for people.

1337
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,480
But going back to my my .1 of
the things that I've taken away

1338
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:07,080
is that, you know, and I think
the Zen tradition I've, I've

1339
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,280
done a lot of practices in a lot
of traditions, but I think the

1340
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,680
Zen tradition, particularly
Rinzai Zen, in my opinion, are

1341
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,320
the most articulate on the
matter of like non conceptual

1342
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,440
reality.
There is almost this, it's truly

1343
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,440
a oneness, but there's this
duality we most experience

1344
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,760
between the conceptual mind of
language and ideas.

1345
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,840
And then like the actual
physical and sensory experience

1346
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,080
of like that we we can't even
talk about, right?

1347
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,760
We can't even put words to it.
I don't know what you want to

1348
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,720
call it.
Call it consciousness awareness.

1349
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:38,880
You call it God, right?
Whatever you want to call it,

1350
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,840
the minute you put a word on it,
you're not it anymore, right?

1351
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,360
And that's the whole idea.
But I think what you're talking

1352
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:48,320
about with that travel, whether
you're traveling to Japan or

1353
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,360
frankly the corner store right
there is the possibility for you

1354
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:57,160
to be in a non conceptual space.
That non conceptual space does

1355
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,320
not exist online.
It does not exist on a screen.

1356
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,560
AI has not no access to it has
never been trained on.

1357
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,200
AI is a fully conceptual
reality.

1358
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,080
So as long as the same way we
learn in meditation to befriend

1359
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,320
our thoughts like early
meditators.

1360
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,320
One of the biggest challenges
when I'm teaching meditation is

1361
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,440
beginners are like, I can't get
my thoughts to shut up.

1362
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,200
And I'm always like, that's not
the goal.

1363
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:19,720
The goal is not to get.
The goal is to befriend your

1364
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,920
thoughts, to recognize your
thoughts aren't true in any

1365
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,680
objective sense.
They are just a voice that.

1366
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,440
You're here and you're.
Just how strange, how curious,

1367
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,720
not it's the enemy go away.
How curious.

1368
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,880
So similarly with AI, it's like
it's just an interesting

1369
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,720
conceptual thought experiment,
but it is not reality.

1370
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,040
That picture of the
philosopher's walk in Kyoto is

1371
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,160
not the actual philosopher's
walk.

1372
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,320
Me talking about my trip to
Japan is not going to Japan.

1373
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,360
The VR of the top of the
mountain is not the top of the

1374
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:51,760
mountain.
And as long as we can stay true

1375
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,320
to that, I think we're going to
be OK with all this technology.

1376
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:58,520
But the problem is it's actually
extremely hard to stay true to

1377
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,400
that.
And it's a skill that we have to

1378
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:01,600
train.
And This is why I've been

1379
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,440
devoting my kind of professional
life to bringing the concepts of

1380
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,760
mindfulness to the technology
conversation, because we cannot

1381
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,520
lose track of that as we are
losing track of it.

1382
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,520
Things are really falling apart
in certain ways.

1383
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,800
And, you know, I don't think
we're too far gone.

1384
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:19,040
I think there is, it is not a
coincidence that there is

1385
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,920
growing interest in mental
health and awareness and

1386
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,400
mindfulness and these types of
ranches because everyone out

1387
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:26,280
there is feeling it every day
and they're like, I need

1388
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,360
something to keep my feet on the
ground, the way you put it.

1389
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,880
So yeah, that's my rant.
So that you said how, you know,

1390
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,120
even just our approach to
looking at AI and and the

1391
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,000
judgment that we immediately
might have right of something

1392
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,520
unknown.
Because I do know people in the

1393
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,560
extreme camps that are like,
hell no, never, not today, not

1394
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,720
ever with AI.
And then the people that are

1395
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,120
like, I'm totally into it and I
don't even know anything about

1396
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,600
anything else at this point.
I'm just an AI bought at bought

1397
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,120
myself.
I'm a vessel for the AM.

1398
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,440
Yeah, So there's something to be
said about like, if you truly

1399
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,000
want to, for anybody who's not
really into the, you know, the

1400
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,360
tech world but is just in it
right now, I'm feeling like, oh,

1401
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:10,720
I don't know where I stand with
this.

1402
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,600
I think that first step of just
taking a step back for a moment

1403
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,840
and saying like, you know,
seeing it for what it is and not

1404
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:18,840
shaming or blaming.
That's a big one.

1405
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,480
Not inducing, not putting guilt
on ourselves for using it or

1406
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,760
being interested in in it and
bringing that sort of piece

1407
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,480
into, you know, your use of, you
know, AI or technology in

1408
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,760
whatever way that looks
bringing, you know, there's a

1409
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:36,080
way to sort of bring a more
mindful, intentional approach to

1410
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:38,440
it.
And also, yeah, I think the

1411
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,400
minute we say I hate or I don't
like this or we put a judgement

1412
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,200
on it, I think that's where you
talk about mindfulness, right?

1413
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,480
That's that's kind of the
opposite of that.

1414
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,960
And that's not unfortunately
that's going to make it harder

1415
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:51,840
for you.
The minute you can just keep

1416
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:56,880
more of a a neutral open stance,
I think is going to be help you

1417
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:02,120
in just in navigating this
because it is going to continue

1418
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,880
to increase and continue to, you
know, be a part of our everyday

1419
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,840
reality whether we like it or
not.

1420
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,160
I was just going to say, I think
we've talked about so many

1421
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,680
amazing topics probably on this
show.

1422
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,680
I mean, all my guests are great,
but I think we've just touched

1423
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:19,920
on a lot of things that, you
know, we've opened a lot of

1424
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:23,440
doors that have just kind of
turned over a lot of stones that

1425
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,680
haven't been really looked at,
which I think is, you know, part

1426
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,120
of the exciting thing about
hosting this podcast is just

1427
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,320
the, as I talked about in the
tagline, it's just the power of

1428
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,560
conversation to catalyze change.
I think for all of us, I came

1429
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,720
away with a lot of really pretty
powerful aha moments.

1430
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,480
You guys have shared some really
interesting insights.

1431
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,240
So I want to, you know, thank
you guys both for for joining

1432
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:48,200
and I want to turn it back to
you guys in no particular order.

1433
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,480
Well, I started with Jay, so I'm
going to turn it over to Josh.

1434
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:54,240
But Josh, is there anything
either talked about on the show

1435
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,480
earlier that you want to circle
back on or maybe clarify or

1436
01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:59,680
maybe expand on?
Is there anything you talked

1437
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,160
about earlier that maybe you
want to circle back and maybe

1438
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,080
just to use Jay's metaphor,
double click on, maybe go a

1439
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,240
little bit further in depth?
Yeah, I think the main thing is

1440
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,280
just probably we didn't touch
really too much about like AI

1441
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,360
empathy versus like human
empathy.

1442
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,840
There is, you know, this
mumbling or murmurs around that

1443
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:20,120
that's going to come too.
And I'm sure to that more.

1444
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:24,240
But you know, I think right now
it's important for us to

1445
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,479
recognize that like just
continuing to realize that human

1446
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,760
empathy is coming from more of
that attunement, right?

1447
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,120
That lived experience.
Someone can sit right in front

1448
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,720
of you and and relate and give
reciprocal understanding and

1449
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,760
emotion.
There's a real feeling on the

1450
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:45,080
other and whereas an AI person
or a person just this body is

1451
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,479
not agent.
Thank you just already giving it

1452
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,840
a character.
This AI agent has no it's

1453
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,399
experience is going to be from
the algorithm like, oh, let me

1454
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:58,520
go back and see what somebody in
Georgia said and that's just not

1455
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,439
it.
That's that's and for us to

1456
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,640
remember that parents for to
remember that to help to help

1457
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,960
with, you know, working with
their kids or seems to remember

1458
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,840
that when they're turning to
developing relationships.

1459
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,560
I know Jay had mentioned quickly
about chatbot relationships,

1460
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,000
right?
We didn't even go there with

1461
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,520
that this conversation, but
that's a whole thing, right?

1462
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,399
There's this idea of in a human
relationship, you have that

1463
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:26,960
mutual sort of nervous systems
connecting even there's more of

1464
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,760
a chance for a live connection,
right versus just on the

1465
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,720
computer, even though some
people rather keep their

1466
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,479
relationship online.
That's a whole nother.

1467
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,359
I don't judge.
That's another way of being, but

1468
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:41,920
you're not going to, I feel like
if it's another person on the

1469
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,920
habit of line that's that's more
interesting to me rather than an

1470
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:47,120
AI agent.
But you're not you're, you know,

1471
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:48,920
you're going to be getting more
valid.

1472
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,120
Like we talked about the whole
validation and reassurance

1473
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,160
versus someone who's going to
challenge you.

1474
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:55,640
Right the way.
Constructive.

1475
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,400
Someone who sees you, knows your
intent, knows where you're

1476
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:03,520
coming from a little bit more
than and and is willing to get

1477
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,000
in the trenches with you in
difficult conversations or when

1478
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:08,120
the chips are down.
I mean, obviously those are more

1479
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,280
serious relationships, but I'm
just giving a taste of the

1480
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:14,600
difference right between that
and something that you're

1481
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:19,160
looking for, that we're looking
for in an AI who may just be

1482
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:23,160
able to give you great banter
maybe and maybe and again give

1483
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,800
you that validation, but may not
are not necessarily looking out

1484
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,360
for your highest and.
Jay.

1485
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:30,520
Yeah.
Jay, what about you?

1486
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:32,480
Anything.
Anything you want to dive back

1487
01:10:32,480 --> 01:10:33,600
into?
Yeah.

1488
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:35,440
Promise.
Promiscuity is cool, but yeah,

1489
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:39,280
this is a.
Strong advocate for everyone to

1490
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,040
be more.
Yeah, that's right.

1491
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:45,080
That's what this song has.
PSA for promiscuity right here.

1492
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,120
That's right.
And for your life and be

1493
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:48,880
promiscuous.
That's finale's.

1494
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,760
Promiscuity.
Promiscuity reimagined.

1495
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:54,840
Yeah.
Two pointing.

1496
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:59,200
OK, I will pick that up real
quick, which is, you know, I

1497
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,760
think it, it's true that we
talked about AI being

1498
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,680
sycophantic and it not being a
real person, but it's also true

1499
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,360
that it can be incredibly deep
and useful.

1500
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:11,960
Like you can talk to it about
personal issues and get real

1501
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:13,960
insights.
You can talk to it about your

1502
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:17,000
meditation practice.
And so both can be true.

1503
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:20,160
And that's why the level of
discernment is so important.

1504
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:23,400
But the thing that I really want
to kind of leave here with is

1505
01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:25,520
for, I think for a lot of
people, I certainly see this

1506
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,120
with the people I work with.
I think for a lot of people this

1507
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:29,920
is all just extremely
overwhelming.

1508
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:34,400
There's just too much happening.
These giant corporations are

1509
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,960
talking about hundreds of
billions of dollars there.

1510
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,840
It's just all out there
somewhere.

1511
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,960
And I am just a victim.
And I think the thing I kind of

1512
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:47,520
want to leave is that we are not
powerless victims, that in fact,

1513
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,960
all of the interactions we're
having with this technology are

1514
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,040
in the intimate spaces of our
lives, in our pockets, on our

1515
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,000
desks, in our bedrooms.
Our children are playing with

1516
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:58,960
these technologies in our
houses, right?

1517
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:03,200
Like we are not powerless to
bring more intention and

1518
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,040
awareness to the choices we
make.

1519
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,040
You don't have to understand
everything to bring clarity to

1520
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:11,280
say which technologies are
serving me and which ones are

1521
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,520
serving me illusions.
Which technologies are helping

1522
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,920
me find more of that soul
connection, even though I'm

1523
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,000
talking to a but it's helping me
build the confidence to go out

1524
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:21,680
in the world and talk to real
people.

1525
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,440
It's fine, there's no problem.
But like which ones are serving

1526
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:27,520
my deepest intentions and which
ones are creating more distance

1527
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,360
between me and the person I want
to be?

1528
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,560
Which one Which ones are like
bringing joy and connection like

1529
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,200
like I gave you that example of
little magic stories like a

1530
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,880
mother and child having
connection and joy together with

1531
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:39,840
AI.
Which ones are like the kid is

1532
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,000
locked in his room in a rabbit
hole with a right.

1533
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:46,200
So for one family, AI could be a
positive source of joy.

1534
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,680
For another family, it could be
a problem that we need to

1535
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,520
eradicate.
And the only way we can tell the

1536
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,480
difference is with awareness,
self-awareness and awareness of

1537
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,600
what's going on in our lives.
And so I think the thing that I

1538
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,880
would leave people with if
they've listened this far would

1539
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,280
be discernment and awareness.
No judgement and shame required,

1540
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:07,200
no guilt required.
You are not powerless.

1541
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:08,880
All of that can be happening out
there.

1542
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,680
But if mindfulness has taught me
one thing in all these years,

1543
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:14,880
it's that you always have a
choice in how you relate to what

1544
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:16,080
you're experiencing.
Yeah.

1545
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:18,160
Well, very well said, both of
you.

1546
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:21,800
I again, extremely grateful to
both of you.

1547
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:26,480
Josh, obviously a long standing
friend and, you know, rock star

1548
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:28,000
in the South Asian mental health
space.

1549
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,320
Thank you for facilitating this.
And Jay, it's, it's such a

1550
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,400
privilege, as I said to you
before, it's such a privilege to

1551
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,160
be connected.
I, I really value both of your

1552
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,560
perspectives.
I think the audience is going to

1553
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:41,040
go go away with a lot of I think
they're going to be not to be

1554
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:42,600
too schmaltzy, but I think
they're going to be better

1555
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,120
people for having listened to
this.

1556
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,760
Think they're going to have a
little bit more clarity and I

1557
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,480
think a little bit more of a new
who wants perspective on what

1558
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:52,320
can as, to use the word you
mentioned before, be a very

1559
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,480
polarizing topic.
So I want to thank you both for

1560
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:58,280
volunteering your time and to
the audience.

1561
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,040
I just want to say thanks for
hanging in there with us on this

1562
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,040
very weighty discussion.
And until the next time we meet,

1563
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:10,280
stay untethered.
Thanks so much for listening and

1564
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,320
I hope you enjoyed that episode.
For more of these types of

1565
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:16,800
conversations, please visit us
at Untether Your Life dot CEO.

1566
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:19,800
You can also find us on
Instagram and Untether Your

1567
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,440
Life, as well as on Apple,
Spotify, and other platforms by

1568
01:14:23,440 --> 01:14:25,080
searching for Untether Your
Life.

1569
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,120
And if you did enjoy this
episode, please leave us a

1570
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,800
review or share it with someone
who might also benefit.

1571
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:33,600
Thanks.
And until the next time we meet,

1572
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:35,000
stay untethered.