53: Ankur Varma, LCPC - Brown Man Therapy: Sparking Dialogue on Mental Health Among Males in the South Asian Diaspora

1
00:00:01,100 --> 00:00:05,300
As a South Asian seeking Mental
Health Services, is it valuable

2
00:00:05,300 --> 00:00:07,900
or counterproductive to find a
therapist who shares your

3
00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:11,100
cultural background, what is the
Russell Peters?

4
00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:14,300
Somebody going to get hurt Trope
of the angry, South Asian.

5
00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:16,000
Father.
Tell us about patriarchy.

6
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,200
In this culture.
How can fighting dreaded traffic

7
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,700
on Lakeshore Drive serve.
As a metaphor for staying in

8
00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:24,600
your lane as a South Asian
contending with the model

9
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,100
minority myth.
And what is brown man therapy?

10
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,300
How did the founder untethered?
Himself from negative

11
00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:34,400
perceptions of social media to
launch incredibly valuable

12
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,800
Instagram, resource for South
Asian, males seeking help with

13
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,500
mental health.
Stay tuned.

14
00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:42,200
As we touch on these and many
other topics on this week's

15
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:55,000
episode of untether your life.
Welcome to untether your life, a

16
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,600
show that empowers you to own
your own health and break free

17
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,400
of templates for managing
physical and mental wellness.

18
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,000
And looks at Key issues,
impacting the South Asian

19
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,400
diaspora.
I am your host in a kilt or

20
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,900
cigar and I'm passionate about
the power of conversation to

21
00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:11,600
catalyze change.
Theme of this podcast is looking

22
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,300
past.
Preconceived notions about

23
00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:16,000
mental health, notably in the
South Asian diaspora.

24
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,900
We've talked about mental
health, from a broad, variety of

25
00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:22,500
perspectives, in the south Asian
diaspora, but one area that we

26
00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,000
haven't delved into deeply is
how it impacts the South Asian

27
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,100
male and that's why I was very
excited to talk to today's

28
00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,400
guest.
Encore Varma ankur, Varma has

29
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,200
his master's of counseling
psychology with a specialization

30
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,600
in Sport and Health Psychology
from Adler University for over

31
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,600
10 years.
Ankur has worked in various

32
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,800
leadership positions, in
Community, Mental Health and

33
00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,700
education to advocate for mental
health, services around

34
00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:48,400
Chicagoland, ankur's, passionate
about bringing a multicultural

35
00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:51,800
person-centered approach to Each
people who have previously been

36
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,900
marginalized or carry stigma
about their own Wellness

37
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,500
recently encores brownman
therapy page on Instagram has

38
00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:02,100
been on a mission to engage more
men and normalize conversations

39
00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:04,300
about mental health and South
Asian cultures.

40
00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:06,700
And with that let's get
untethered.

41
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,600
So anchor again, great to have
you on.

42
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,200
Is there anything else you
wanted to add beyond what I just

43
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:12,400
shared with listeners?
Not really.

44
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,000
I forgot how much was actually
in there but you know, I'm happy

45
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,100
to be here and overall this is
really what lights My Fire.

46
00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:23,300
Is having conversations like
this with like-minded people,

47
00:02:23,300 --> 00:02:26,600
with, with the intent of getting
the word out there about topics

48
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,900
that have previously, been
difficult to talk about, or

49
00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:32,800
really just difficult to know
how to talk about.

50
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,400
I'm always fascinated to
understand because as you and I

51
00:02:35,408 --> 00:02:39,400
were talking about the mental
health Journey for South Asians

52
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,500
has just become this huge
movement in the last year.

53
00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:44,500
I would say.
So tell me more about your

54
00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:47,300
journey to mental health.
Encore how did you get

55
00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,100
interested in the field and was
it a specific life?

56
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,700
Experiences.
Yeah, so my foray into mental

57
00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:56,600
health, always started with an
interest from the educational

58
00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,500
standpoint into psychology.
I think for me personally it was

59
00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:05,000
fascinating to see how the
people I grew up with and

60
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,700
around, you know, how we kind of
branched off even with having

61
00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:12,100
similar experiences.
So I have a brother who's just

62
00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:14,200
about 15 to 18 months younger
than me.

63
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,200
So we're very close in age, but
you might see us and meet us and

64
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,100
talk to us and see two
seemingly.

65
00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:22,900
Different people even though a
lot of our clearances were very

66
00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:26,300
shared and so my interest in
Psychology came from, seeing the

67
00:03:26,308 --> 00:03:29,500
people around me, my friends and
then it slowly grew.

68
00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:33,400
As I also have my own
experiences with both good and

69
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,400
negative mental health, issues
and struggle.

70
00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:39,000
And those are the experiences
that help us empathize with

71
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,500
others who are going through
struggle.

72
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,000
And part of the work that we do
is to understand, you know, the

73
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,600
separation, the boundary between
our own experiences and those of

74
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,000
others will say on the personal
side as well.

75
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:56,100
You No, I was on this journey
that is typical or familiar to

76
00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:59,800
most South Asian people.
I went to college as a pre-med

77
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,600
major and so I had this very
interesting Dynamic Around Me

78
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,600
growing up.
I grew up in a part of

79
00:04:06,608 --> 00:04:09,600
Cincinnati where there were very
few Indian people.

80
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,800
Very few people of color in my
classes on my sports teams.

81
00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:17,899
And so I grew up with people who
did not look like me, who did

82
00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:21,700
not pray like me, who did not
eat like But I did have people

83
00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:24,300
in that base.
I have a big extended family

84
00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:26,800
that lives in Cincinnati.
The Indian Community in

85
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,400
Cincinnati was actually not too
small when I grew up and we were

86
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,400
relatively tied into it.
So I did have those experiences,

87
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,600
it just wasn't the next door
neighbor or the person in my

88
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,200
English class.
And so that really offered me a

89
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,400
diverse array of experiences in
terms of understanding how my

90
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,500
culture compared to others
cultures and how that kind of

91
00:04:47,508 --> 00:04:50,000
identity process work.
And, you know, even within that

92
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,400
That the challenges of that, my
grandfather, like to say, you're

93
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,600
Indian at home and you're
American at school or at work, I

94
00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,900
think the sentiment behind that
was positive in that you have to

95
00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:02,900
recognize and remember where
you're from, what your values

96
00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:06,700
are, who your family is, but
really, what that also serves to

97
00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:10,700
do, sometimes is create a little
bit of a split and identity.

98
00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:14,300
You put on one task at school
and one mask at home and

99
00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:16,800
sometimes it gets confusing,
especially when you're younger

100
00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:20,100
as to, which mask am I supposed
to wear, or am I allowed to not,

101
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,000
And so, really, all of that kind
of just paying attention that

102
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,500
experience really came to a
head.

103
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,900
When I went to medical school
after my undergrad and I really

104
00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:32,300
struggled, I hadn't taken the
time to really think about my

105
00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:34,500
motivation behind going to this
field.

106
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,100
And at that time to, I started
to recognize that I was

107
00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:38,700
struggling.
So all I didn't realize.

108
00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:42,800
Oh, so you had actually gone to
medical school prior to going

109
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,700
into the your current profession
that they'll tell me more about

110
00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:47,300
that.
Yeah.

111
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,100
So I spent about a year year and
a half a medical school.

112
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,800
School.
And there was a little bit of a

113
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,800
culture shock for me.
I went abroad for medical school

114
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,400
and so I wasn't too prepared for
that acculturation process being

115
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,600
away from family and friends.
And then also, just not being in

116
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,600
the right head space to studying
for 12 hours a day and, you

117
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,100
know, have such a high pressure
experience.

118
00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:15,500
I remember thinking I had a
behavior Sciences class my

119
00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:18,500
second or by Third semester
there and I remember thinking

120
00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:22,200
like this is what I want to do.
This is why this is what like

121
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,300
inquiry.
Woke me up that behavior

122
00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:26,600
Sciences class, just like my
psychology classes and

123
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,200
undergrad, really like woke my
brain up and I realized hey this

124
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,000
is maybe something I need to
pursue, it's just not through

125
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,000
the medicine track and so that's
where I ended up leaving medical

126
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,500
school and then I worked some
odd jobs actually including in

127
00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:45,300
car sales, which people are
sometimes surprised by, but

128
00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:47,800
really bad experience to write.
Sure me gathered.

129
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,100
There's a psychology biology
that too, right?

130
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,500
You feed in every every field in
every realm.

131
00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:56,400
And so being able to talk to
people about their finances, get

132
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,700
them open understand them.
That's something that you have

133
00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:00,200
to do in sales and that
translated.

134
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,000
Well when I decided to pursue my
masters in counseling, psych-k

135
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,000
you know, Psychiatry is a very
different profession from what

136
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,500
it was when we were younger.
I mean, I mentioned to you

137
00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:12,700
before my father is a
psychiatrist and it's a very

138
00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:15,400
different field right now, just
because of the way Health Care

139
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,300
is in general, it's not the
consultative approach and this

140
00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:22,900
is something that I mean, I
don't know what flash of

141
00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:26,200
Brilliance or lack thereof that
decided to segment of

142
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,200
pharmaceutical aspect with the
actual cognitive behavioral

143
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,900
therapy aspect because they're
so tightly coupled.

144
00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:35,800
And now Psychiatry is just more.
A matter of it's like an

145
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,600
assembly line right, where it's
just basically like, ask a

146
00:07:38,608 --> 00:07:40,900
couple questions.
I would almost call it like

147
00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:43,700
vending machine mental health
where it's basically you put it,

148
00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:45,900
you put a quarter in, you get
your diagnosis.

149
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,600
Here's your medication any
contraindications?

150
00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:51,400
No, but I think it's It sounds
like you're happy with the

151
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,700
decision, right?
I mean, with going into this

152
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,900
branch of mental health as
opposed to maybe into Psychiatry

153
00:07:56,900 --> 00:07:58,700
then.
Yeah, absolutely.

154
00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:03,300
I think being able to find
something that actually came out

155
00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:07,200
of struggle, came out of my own,
darkness of experience has

156
00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,500
really helped because, you know,
sometimes you do have to

157
00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:13,900
struggle to get to what's good
for you.

158
00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:18,400
And sometimes we do things
because we're supposed to or

159
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,600
because tradition says, to do
so, And that's okay to a limit.

160
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,900
There is a limit to being able
to do things because somebody or

161
00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:29,300
something else has has told us
to do that.

162
00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:32,600
And really at the end of the
day, we have to merge those

163
00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,700
things.
Both, what is my culture?

164
00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,500
My tradition.
And what is it?

165
00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:40,200
That is important to me and find
the kind of the overlap, the

166
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,200
middle part of that Venn diagram
and are immigrants and, and

167
00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:47,300
allowed that to be our identity,
rather than one or the other too

168
00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:48,200
much.
Yeah.

169
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,600
And I think I don't know if your
parents Mentioned this, but they

170
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,100
tended to say that things were a
lot simpler back in India

171
00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:57,800
because it was like, you had
three choices, which was the

172
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,000
doctor engineer or failure and
here it's sometimes the choices

173
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,900
can be overwhelming because
there are so many options, but

174
00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,200
you touched on one thing that
I'd like to delve into a little

175
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,700
bit more.
I don't know if you use these

176
00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:14,800
exact words but you talked about
sort of being Indian at home and

177
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,800
then being American outside the
home and the term model minority

178
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,900
myth.
Obviously, that term gets used

179
00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,400
quite a bit, but I wanted to get
your take on it, in terms of

180
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,000
what you are seeing with your
clients, in terms of the

181
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,500
struggles, they're facing with
the model minority myth.

182
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:33,600
It's really like an over
simplification.

183
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,900
What did psychology and
Psychiatry look like

184
00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:38,600
quote-unquote back in the day.
And this is really what the

185
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,800
world looked like.
The world was a formula.

186
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,700
We're supposed to go to school
grade school, high school

187
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,700
college, and then some sort of
graduate degree that is going to

188
00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:50,600
get you stability.
So you mentioned that That the

189
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,500
Trope of doctor lawyer engineer
for Indian.

190
00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:57,400
But if I go to India, I'm going
to find, 1 billion, non doctors,

191
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,000
lawyers and engineers at sure.
And so we look at that, in terms

192
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,300
of the Immigrant experience.
And we see the ability, we see

193
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,300
education as that pathway to
survival and then Thrive it's,

194
00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:13,300
you know, my parents were born
in India and moved here later on

195
00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,800
in their lives.
And so, for those of us who are

196
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,700
from these first second, and
third generation kinds of

197
00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:22,000
families and Dynamics We might
have that experience where we

198
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,400
feel this pressure to be a
certain someone and really at

199
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,300
the end of the day, human beings
act through survival.

200
00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:32,400
So if we're not having our basic
needs met, then those are that's

201
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,300
where our focus is going to be
our energy, both mental and

202
00:10:35,300 --> 00:10:37,200
physical is going to go towards
that.

203
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,200
And so for those immigrants that
were able to come to the United

204
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,700
States and have enough
wherewithal privilege, well,

205
00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:50,000
whatever might be to pursue a
degree like a medical degree.

206
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,700
Or law degree or an engineering
degree to have access to that

207
00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:59,300
meant freedom from poverty
freedom from maybe not not

208
00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,800
actual freedom from, but a
perceive freedom from trauma or

209
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,900
struggle.
I think about my dad's family a

210
00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:06,900
lot but my dad came over when he
was 14.

211
00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,700
But he's the youngest of six
said, bright, most of the

212
00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:12,900
siblings actually poor married
with kids already when they came

213
00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:15,000
over here and they take a piece
by piece.

214
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,400
They didn't come 15 people.
At the same time they came every

215
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,800
year or every couple of years as
Had much.

216
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,300
And as they had the ability to
buy a plane ticket to come over.

217
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:28,000
And so, I think when we to your
question about model minorities,

218
00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:29,700
right?
We think of you, no, Indian

219
00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,400
people or South Asian people.
Sometimes it's being the model.

220
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,300
Minority really?
What this is is a racist true,

221
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,600
right?
And truth because it's a

222
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,600
designation of Who You Are by a
quote unquote Superior class,

223
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,400
typically we think of that as
white and well and that both of

224
00:11:46,408 --> 00:11:49,400
those, I think have to be kind
of true at the at the start of

225
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,200
it and that The foundation.
So, hey, you are better than

226
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:56,600
this race but you're still not
as good as us.

227
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,400
And so we can tell these lower
classes who might be black or

228
00:11:59,408 --> 00:12:03,800
Latino say hey why can't you be
more like Asian racial class to

229
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,800
stay in their Lane, they don't
make waves.

230
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,700
They just yeah they just like
kind of do as they're told as we

231
00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:12,000
guide them along and I think
that like you said laying that,

232
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,100
you know, that's such a good
analogy here.

233
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,800
You're on one of those big wide
highways.

234
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,900
Okay, the right lane is the
slowest Lane.

235
00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,900
Got traffic merge.
And exiting so it slows down

236
00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:24,700
naturally and then you have the
middle Lanes it gets a little

237
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:27,400
bit faster, it opens up a little
bit more that's maybe where the

238
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,800
model minorities live but right
but we don't have access to is

239
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,400
that carpool lane where
everybody's going 80.

240
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,800
And so you know I think that's a
really good way to kind of

241
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,300
picture this and say hey well
the middle veins are technically

242
00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:42,800
better on certain, you know,
maybe on money or education or

243
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,900
something like that, but you're
still not as good enough to be

244
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:48,400
in the carpool lane.
And so, that's where I think the

245
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,900
model minority myth.
Is the important word here is

246
00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,200
really damaging because it
really hits different

247
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,900
ethnicities different races
against each other.

248
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,400
So that one race.
Or one set of classes wealth,

249
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,200
socioeconomic status can
continue to thrive and even pull

250
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,700
itself further away from others.
How are your clients managing

251
00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,300
with that?
And I guess maybe, if I could

252
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,400
step back a little bit because,
you know, obviously your

253
00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:15,500
Instagram feed is brown, man,
therapy.

254
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,800
What is the makeup of your
clientele?

255
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,900
Is it pretty diverse?
Because I think, United talk, I

256
00:13:20,908 --> 00:13:23,300
think you said you would work
with a lot of Latino

257
00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:25,800
communities, talk to me a little
bit about that about, you know,

258
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,700
in terms of the communities that
you see are they are they pretty

259
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:32,700
diverse in terms of cultural
makeup and, you know, I think we

260
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,400
bonded over both being from Ohio
and being familiar with Chicago

261
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,100
and being in the Chicago area.
And that's what I love about

262
00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:41,500
this city.
There's a lot of faults to

263
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:44,700
Chicago so those of you who are
not from Chicago who are lifting

264
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,700
your like wait I only hear bad
things about yourself.

265
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:48,900
Right?
Murder capital, right.

266
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,600
We've got our violence, we've
got our marginalization of

267
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,700
communities, and there's a lot
of work to do, but that's also

268
00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,900
what excites me and so in my
career I've worked I was telling

269
00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:01,400
you towards the beginning of my
career.

270
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,100
I worked with a lot of Latino
communities, a lot of lower

271
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,400
resource communities.
And I've really overall though,

272
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:13,300
my clientele is diverse, it's
really who I fit well with and

273
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:17,000
so I don't necessarily Focus my
attention to much on, okay?

274
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,700
I'm only going to work with
these types of clients, I think

275
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:24,100
my Us as a clinician it's
important to me to have a

276
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:28,100
diverse caseload, so that I'm
seeing different ages, different

277
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:31,600
resource levels, different
cultural and religious

278
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,700
traditional backgrounds, so that
I can kind of understand the

279
00:14:34,708 --> 00:14:38,100
human experience as holistically
as possible.

280
00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:42,400
So, if I can focus my attention
on, only adult males, or only

281
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,600
people from South Asian
backgrounds, I feel like that

282
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,900
would be limiting to me in terms
of the work I can do in the

283
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:50,700
understanding and empathy I can
build My clients.

284
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,700
So it's big.
My clinical work has actually

285
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:56,300
been reduced.
I'm more in a managerial and

286
00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:59,500
supervisory role right now with
my clients it's a pretty wide

287
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,800
array and and to your question
about or in my experience out of

288
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,200
the model, minority myth layout,
it's not anything that I've ever

289
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,100
really talked about explicitly
with many clients.

290
00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,900
I can think of one client where
we talked about, you know, these

291
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,000
kinds of topics specifically
named the mount model, minority,

292
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,100
myth, or patriarchy or toxic
masculinity.

293
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,700
Those kinds of topics came out
because That was something that

294
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:24,400
he was really well read and very
interested in terms of his own

295
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,900
experience.
So it's not necessarily

296
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:28,600
something that we address
directly, but it is something

297
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,500
that we will talk about in a
individualized way.

298
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:35,300
What is your experience as this
identity?

299
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,100
And that identity includes your
culture, your religion, your

300
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:42,800
geography, your socio-economic
makeup in the whole host of

301
00:15:42,808 --> 00:15:44,300
things.
Sexuality, gender.

302
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,200
So, all of these things have to
intersect somewhere.

303
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,600
And so for me and you, we might
have Very similar backgrounds,

304
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,800
in terms of where we were
brought up, it could be

305
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,800
religion, it could be our
friends, it could be our

306
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,900
geography, but we're going to
have a completely different

307
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:02,500
overall identity of the world.
That's also why, you know, these

308
00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:04,900
kinds of terms are just a
starting point for how we have

309
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:08,100
these conversations but anytime
you think of a term and you

310
00:16:08,108 --> 00:16:10,700
think, oh, this applies to
everybody, it doesn't.

311
00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:14,700
So this is why we start with
model minority or we start with

312
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:18,000
toxic masculinity and then we
can break that down until we get

313
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,800
to the community and to the
individual.

314
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:23,300
Absolutely.
And no I think that's a good

315
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,400
point.
Bring up about trying to be an

316
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,500
equal opportunity provider just
because I personally think so

317
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:31,000
there has been a lot of
discussion.

318
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,400
I know there are organizations
out there.

319
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,900
I think it's South Asian
therapists, they have an

320
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:40,000
Instagram feed, but I know there
is a concerted effort to pair up

321
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,600
Mental Health Providers on the
certain background, like South

322
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,700
Asian with clients who are
salvation as well.

323
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:50,300
And there's so many complexities
to that because for one, And I

324
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,200
think this might have come up in
the article that you would work

325
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,700
with zhoushan about why our
South Asian male.

326
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,500
So angry there can be a little
bit of insecurity or maybe

327
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:03,900
self-consciousness about being
so vulnerable and open with a

328
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:07,000
member of the community, not
necessarily someone you might

329
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,200
have known, you know, at the
temple or whatever.

330
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,800
But because of that shared
Heritage, there is that sense of

331
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,200
well, you know, I still have to
put on my game face.

332
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,200
I still have to put on this
facade, and then the other thing

333
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,300
is, sometimes I would almost
Argue that it can be kind of an

334
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:24,900
echo chamber because there might
be some things that there are

335
00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:29,300
commonalities that we tend to
gloss over unconsciously, right?

336
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,800
We tend to think this is just
the way things are in our

337
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,300
culture, but it is something
that I have devoted more thought

338
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,900
to recently.
Because there are so many

339
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:41,800
complexities in the South Asian
experience that like, for

340
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,500
instance, the collectivist
society for South Asians, it's

341
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:47,800
pretty unusual.
I think to completely break free

342
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,500
from their parents or because,
you know, whereas Americans, I

343
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,100
think our white people, whatever
term you want to use, it tends

344
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:56,300
to be more common.
I think it's because of our

345
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,000
Collective this background.
The family unit is very I don't

346
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,200
want to say strong, but it's
very binding.

347
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,000
I guess would be the term.
But yeah, I mean, so that's why

348
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,600
I wanted to segue into the
discussion about how this

349
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,100
informed brown man therapy.
If you could talk to me a little

350
00:18:11,108 --> 00:18:14,600
bit about that, was it informed
by a certain deficiency that you

351
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,900
saw in mental health as as it
applies to South Asian males?

352
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:22,600
The first thing I want to Days.
You do not need a South Asian

353
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,100
therapist to do the therapeutic
work friend.

354
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,200
I will tell you.
I have never had a Salvation

355
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,000
therapist.
I have had three therapists that

356
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,200
I've worked with in my life for
myself.

357
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,800
And none of them are South
Asian.

358
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:36,400
They've been three, great
therapeutic relationships.

359
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,100
So, you know, it's really
dependent on you, and this is an

360
00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:42,700
individual process.
It might be more important for

361
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:45,600
you to have a somebody to
certain gender, right?

362
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,400
I was just talking to a friend
and helping him find a therapist

363
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:49,900
and he was like, it's really
important.

364
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,100
That my therapist is apparent
because he was struggling with

365
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:57,100
things with his children.
And so he needs to have somebody

366
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:59,000
who he can connect with on that
level.

367
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,900
That's a very valid question to
ask a potentially new therapist

368
00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:04,900
is how have you worked with
somebody?

369
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,800
Like me who has similar
experiences to me and they don't

370
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,100
necessarily have to have had
those experiences to be able to

371
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:12,800
empathize with you.
And in fact, I think this is

372
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,600
where sometimes not having
somebody who is too similar to

373
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,900
you cannot actually help my
current therapist I've been

374
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:22,300
working with for a long.
Time eight years may be off and

375
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:25,900
on, you know, is just kind of my
person that I can go to when I

376
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:28,100
when I need it.
And that's a great place to deal

377
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:30,500
with therapy in general, right?
It doesn't have to be always

378
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:34,200
like a weekly thing because she
comes from a different, she's

379
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,800
older.
And she's not Indian, she's not

380
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,700
South Asian.
She asked me questions.

381
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:41,100
That make me actually.
Think about, where did this come

382
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:42,200
from?
Is this like new thing?

383
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,000
That's horrible to my family?
Is this normal to me?

384
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:48,700
Where did I learn this Behavior?
Where did I learn this belief or

385
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:51,900
value?
And so sometimes you might have

386
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,600
that overlooked if you have
somebody who has a very similar

387
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,600
cultural upbringing because they
automatically assume things the

388
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,300
echo chamber.
That's what I was talking came

389
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,200
to, like, like you said, right?
It's like sometimes it's like

390
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,800
you need somebody who's
different enough from you to be

391
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,700
able to challenge you to ask you
the right questions.

392
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:10,300
Doesn't mean that another South
Asian therapist can't ask you

393
00:20:10,308 --> 00:20:12,200
those questions.
But it's important that they're

394
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,000
doing the work for themselves to
process and maintain those

395
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,600
boundaries between their own
lived experience and yours and

396
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,200
so the getting too brown man
therapy.

397
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,000
That's really Wanted to have
more of these conversations.

398
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,400
I found that I wasn't having
enough of these conversations,

399
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,800
both in my personal life, with
my family, with my closest

400
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,900
friends, who are from South
Asian background nor was I seen

401
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:34,800
enough of those clients in my
clinical work, you know, really

402
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,700
I say it started as farc with me
when I had a client.

403
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:40,600
Actually a client that to me
open my eyes because I'm like,

404
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:44,200
wow, I personally have a lot of
similar experiences to this

405
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,800
person as another Indian fail.
And I want to have these kinds

406
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,400
of therapy sessions.
As more.

407
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,700
And, you know, I think it was an
interesting eye-opening

408
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:55,900
experience to me because I had
to process for myself with my

409
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,100
colleagues.
Those overlapping value systems

410
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,200
experiences that he had that.
I maybe I didn't have the same

411
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,300
exact experience, but I could
easily empathize with his

412
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,600
relationship, with his parents,
with his relationship, with with

413
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,000
work, and what were meant to
hand, and finding the right

414
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,200
field for himself.
And so, that was the first

415
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,400
client, it wasn't the first
South Asian client, I'd worked

416
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,800
with.
But the first client, that was

417
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:19,800
similar enough to me where I
was.

418
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,800
Like, we really need to have
these conversations more openly

419
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:27,300
and I'm hanging out with my
Indian, male friends, South

420
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,400
Asian male friends.
We are not talking about our

421
00:21:29,408 --> 00:21:31,400
mental health.
We are not who might even talk

422
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,000
about what we're eating our
Nutrition a little bit, but once

423
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,400
it starts to get into that
feeling phase of things.

424
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:41,400
It shuts down really quickly.
So you know, I had this urge to

425
00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:45,700
get this conversation started
some way eventually I got to

426
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:49,800
Brown man therapy as a concept
that I felt like, okay, I know

427
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:53,300
Oh enough about Instagram and
being able to most, let me just

428
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,800
dive in.
Let me see what happens.

429
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,200
And the reception was way more
than I could have ever expected

430
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,900
and and led to conversations
that I had craved for a long

431
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:01,600
time.
Yeah.

432
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,600
And you know, you touched on a
couple topics.

433
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,600
I wanted to delve a little bit
further into in, this was also

434
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,300
discussed in the article.
You would you and Joe should

435
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,400
worked on together in Psychology
today.

436
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,300
But patriarchy, I think is such
a huge Topic in our culture and

437
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:18,500
one of the things I loved about
that article.

438
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,300
I'm not a huge fan.
That one Russell Peters, the

439
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:24,100
Trope about the angry South
Asian, father, you know,

440
00:22:24,108 --> 00:22:26,800
somebody's going to get hurt.
I was just laughing about that

441
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,900
because on the same token,
there's some, you know, there's

442
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:34,400
some pain there too, because
there is that really stoic,

443
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,800
take-no-prisoners mentality with
that patriarchal element to

444
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,800
South Asian culture.
Talk to me a little bit more

445
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,800
about that.
I'd love to hear your

446
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,400
perspective on patriarchy, as
applied to the South Asian

447
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,100
mental health experience.
Patriarchy is a huge topic It's

448
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,800
probably worthy of 20 episodes
of a podcast.

449
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,900
So, I'll stick with the anger
portion.

450
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,500
The emotional aspect of things.
Again, we think about

451
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,200
patriarchy, it's such a scary
term, right?

452
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,100
It's something that we talk
about and we throw around a lot,

453
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,500
but again, it's one of those,
you know, red flag terms.

454
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:09,100
Where what does that actually
mean in Context of me as the

455
00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,000
individual or my family, or my
community, right?

456
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,900
So, when we think about South
Asian culture and Community, a

457
00:23:14,908 --> 00:23:18,400
lot of times we have this, like
you mentioned this tro, the

458
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,800
stereo typical day.
Add, who is maybe more silent,

459
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:25,800
but when he talks, it's
generally going to be more angry

460
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,200
or stern of in some way, right?
And I think I've connected with

461
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,200
people where like, yeah, you
know, your dad could give you a

462
00:23:33,208 --> 00:23:35,500
look across the room and they're
going to stop doing whatever

463
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:37,300
you're doing.
They don't have to say anything

464
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:38,900
because you know exactly what
they're feeling.

465
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:41,900
It's disappointment, it's
frustration and anger and I

466
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:45,500
think this goes back to why it's
so important to have these

467
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:49,400
conversations because when you
think about a patriarchy you

468
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,000
think, That the male is the head
of the household is the head of

469
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,700
the family, which you can have a
different experience from that.

470
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,800
I actually had this experience
where we had a lot of powerful

471
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,800
men in my family, but I really
saw the females, the women, my

472
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,000
mom, my grandmother, my aunts,
as the powerhouses in our

473
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,200
family.
And so, patriarchy doesn't

474
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,400
necessarily mean that females
are weak, our don't have voices,

475
00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:16,200
right?
But they haven't been given the

476
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,700
proper platform and equity in
terms of their role.

477
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,200
And so what we talked about
that, Angry Dad, I think that

478
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,600
comes from this idea that
they're not allowed to share all

479
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,100
of their emotional range.
They're not allowed to express

480
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:33,000
that and so that comes from the
pressure of being the leader

481
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,800
being the the term of
Breadwinner for the family.

482
00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:39,900
So if dorkly the mother figure
is the one that's going to stay

483
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:44,400
at home with the children and do
the nurturing and the child

484
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,300
bearing, then the father is
going to be responsible.

485
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:51,600
For the income, the revenue.
And that comes with its own

486
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,400
pressure.
In a lot of times as we get into

487
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,400
the fighting mentality where
it's like, well motherhood is

488
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,900
work to.
Absolutely completely agree but

489
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:03,100
not having a balance is also
important to understand here.

490
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,200
So both parents traditional
Family.

491
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:09,700
Household, if one is doing all
of the outside work of income

492
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,200
generation and one is doing all
of the child rearing, there's an

493
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,300
imbalance and that means that
the father is not going to have

494
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:19,700
the time or the energy to
develop.

495
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000
The also being told I'm not
supposed to do this, so, they're

496
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,700
being told, I'm not supposed to
hug my child or tell him I'm

497
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:30,200
proud of him or say, hey, it's
okay, you stumbled and you fell

498
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:32,800
and you failed at this, but
that's okay.

499
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,500
I'm going to lift you back up.
That is not an experience that a

500
00:25:35,508 --> 00:25:37,300
lot of people will tell you
about.

501
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:39,500
You know, that some of those
things are going to be more what

502
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,400
we deem as maternal roles.
And so, it's important to

503
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,000
recognize that, that anger,
develop, because we're

504
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,800
suppressing all these other
emotional experiences.

505
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,200
The ability to cry, too, Feel
sadness to feel like you're

506
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,100
helpless at.
You, you're overwhelmed.

507
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:58,300
Those are not experiences as men
that were supposed to share with

508
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,800
other people and we're told that
all those typical things that we

509
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,000
were raised with, boys will be
Boys, Boys.

510
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,900
Don't Cry be strong.
I remember clients.

511
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:09,500
They early in my career, I
remember talking to the parent

512
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:11,600
of a client whose parent had
passed away.

513
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,500
So, the other parent and I were
talking about it and the father

514
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,000
had passed.
And at the funeral, multiple

515
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,800
family members had told this
child.

516
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,100
With eight or nine years old.
You are the man of the house.

517
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,600
Now Bonnie strong for your
mother and your sister as an

518
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,600
eight-year-old.
Wow, that's a lot to learn in

519
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,300
order to help protect that.
And so, when we think about

520
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:33,300
patriarchy and South Asian
culture, we also have to think

521
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:35,700
about the Immigrant experience.
And so the last thing I'll talk

522
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,200
about here is the Immigrant
experience is a lot of times

523
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,900
that we mature at ages sooner
than we should.

524
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:45,100
Because we have you to translate
for our parents or we were going

525
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,100
through school and they haven't
been to that kind of schooling

526
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:50,000
or educational process.
So they don't No.

527
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,800
So we have to kind of figure it
out ourselves to a lot of times

528
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,600
resource finding, you know,
learning the language learning

529
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,700
the processes.
You know, what do we do at the

530
00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:00,000
store?
How do we go about opening up a

531
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,400
bank account?
Sometimes those are things that

532
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,400
we're learning at the same time
as our parents.

533
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,600
And so when we don't have open
lines of communication

534
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,100
especially with Father's, then
we also really lack in terms of

535
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:15,100
openness in that when we grow up
as men, those of us who are

536
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:18,100
second and third generation and
we had to, we had fathers, who

537
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:22,000
had had this kind of Put this
into The Stereotype to this

538
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,800
Lane, you know, we're now
relearning things for ourselves

539
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,100
and so you know that's where
we're being told.

540
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,000
Our history is telling us what
we have to be.

541
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,300
We have to be stoic.
We have to be very flat or

542
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,700
level.
We can't ever be too excited or

543
00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:38,600
two down.
We have to make all the money if

544
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,000
my wife or partner makes more
money than me.

545
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,300
That.
That's exactly right now.

546
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,400
Yeah, I'm inferior.
Now if I'm the one that stays

547
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,700
on, with the kids, how am I
possibly going to face my

548
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:51,700
Friends and tell them, my wife
is working.

549
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,400
But I'm not that we're all of a
sudden struggling because we're

550
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,600
experiencing things that we
didn't have any guidance on

551
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,200
because our parents were not in
that place to guide us through

552
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,600
the world that we're in now.
And so now we're having a unique

553
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,400
Challenge and that's also part
of why I wanted to have more of

554
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,200
these conversations because our
experience as second and third

555
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,600
generation immigrants.
Is truly the at this point in

556
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,100
history.
I think a lot of these issues of

557
00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:20,000
identity and a lot of the
comparisons that we get into Of

558
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,900
it is driven by social media.
Now, you have a very interesting

559
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,600
Journey with social media for
brownman therapy.

560
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,600
Obviously, Instagram is at the
heart of that because that's

561
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,800
where primarily you're
publishing your updates, you're

562
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,000
doing and Instagram lives.
But there's a flip side of that,

563
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000
which we talked about on the
show, which is the Dark Side of

564
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,100
social media, which is the
tendency to get into this

565
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,200
comparison trap or, you know
fomo and also this tendency to

566
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,500
curate your experience to be
complete Distortion, you know,

567
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,600
you.
See, people, who are they have

568
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,600
the best life on Instagram.
And then the next day, you know,

569
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,700
you don't hear from them or God
forbid.

570
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:00,100
They end up taking their life.
I'd love to hear more about your

571
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:02,800
journey with social media
because it sounds like it's not

572
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,000
something that you were
wholeheartedly of fan of like,

573
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,100
all your life and brown, man,
therapy kind of segwayed into

574
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:11,500
that.
So, you know, I think more

575
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,200
recently.
That was my struggle around.

576
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,300
Starting, brownman therapy.
Was my perception of social

577
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:19,700
media especially as a clinician
the my clients.

578
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,700
It Equally their anxiety, their
depression.

579
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:24,500
Their struggle is not made
better by more social media

580
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:27,000
experience.
And so, you know, I think I was

581
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,300
a little disillusioned and jaded
towards towards social media

582
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,700
platforms because I was seeing
it especially, you know, they're

583
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:35,600
long stretches of my career.
I've worked a lot with

584
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,700
adolescents and young adults,
who get a lot of social

585
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:41,500
interaction and exposure through
social media.

586
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:44,400
And so I was seeing a lot of
depressed, teens and young

587
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,200
adults and anxious, socially
anxious and otherwise

588
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:51,500
individuals who were Were there
symptoms were exacerbated by

589
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:55,700
social media so you know I think
that really that disillusionment

590
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:57,600
really been followed me down in
terms of.

591
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,900
Do I really want to go on social
media to get the word out?

592
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,600
But what I realized in the
refrain for myself was this is a

593
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,000
platform it is here to stay and
if we don't kind of take the

594
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000
reins as much as possible and we
filter it into something that is

595
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,900
positive constructive and real.
Then you know, social media will

596
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,300
continue to be have that. -
perception and have that

597
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:25,200
negative impact on people.
And so, for me, I was, I became

598
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,700
an adult.
I was a young adult when

599
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,100
Facebook came out.
I was a high schooler middle

600
00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:35,200
schooler when AOL and a I am was
was getting out there and

601
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,600
Friendster.
I don't think I ever did that

602
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,900
but you know, those times are
old two of them, some people

603
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:42,000
might have remaining cool or
what we're talking about here,

604
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,300
right?
But I remembered the Facebook

605
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,900
and I remember being, you know,
that first year of Facebook

606
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,000
being what, you know, one of
those initial members and I

607
00:30:49,008 --> 00:30:50,900
loved it.
Is great too, with my

608
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:54,000
high-school friend tour in other
places and just to get this,

609
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,200
stay in touch with people and in
a brand new way.

610
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,100
So for me, I was actually a
frequenter of social media for

611
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,400
the first several years that I
was on Facebook.

612
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,000
And then I burnt out, you know,
obligations as politics, got

613
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,200
more heated as more and more
people joined.

614
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,300
And as I started to work in this
field more and more and see the

615
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,100
impact of social media.
I started to really pull myself

616
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:19,200
away from it to the point where
I actually for a full year did

617
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,700
not go.
Social media.

618
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:25,500
And, you know, I almost had to
completely unplugged before I

619
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:29,600
was able to kind of replug and
have a good digital detox.

620
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,500
Basically.
Absolutely.

621
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,700
You know, the three things that
come to mind for me here, our

622
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:38,300
awareness awareness being, how
am I using social media?

623
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,900
And when am I just scrolling?
I just got off work, and I'm

624
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:46,000
just scrolling and scrolling and
scrolling and exposing myself to

625
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,600
dozens hundreds of people's
experiences new store.

626
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,900
Or he's videos pictures, going
down the rabbit hole.

627
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,100
Exactly.
Going through the rabbit hole.

628
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:57,900
Doom scrolling is another term
that I've heard from my younger

629
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,800
clientele and then what's the
makeup of my social media

630
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,400
exposure?
Am I only looking at people who

631
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,400
don't have Lifestyles like me
and my looking at Celebrities,

632
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,300
or actors, or entertainers of
some sort who, you know, I'm

633
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:14,700
going to compare myself to in
the most unrealistic ways.

634
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:18,600
And so I think that's where we
have to, then lead ourselves to

635
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,900
balance and modern And be more
intentional and think about

636
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,900
because it is scary.
I equated to like a morphine

637
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,400
drip where it's just basically
something you're taking in and

638
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,900
it seems so innocuous.
And then over time, you know,

639
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:36,100
you look at the clock and you've
spent 10 minutes and sometimes

640
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,400
it's not even the quantity, it's
the quality of the information.

641
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,500
A lot of people say, they don't
even read the news anymore

642
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,500
because there's so much
negativity and you're exposing

643
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,900
your brain to all that
information that's going to

644
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:49,600
Ripple through and no wonder
you're feeling sluggish.

645
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:52,700
No, wonder you're not feeling up
to going on the gym and the

646
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,100
Trope, I uses.
Its that bag of Funyuns, you

647
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:59,200
know, that's basically it's like
you're in this low State of

648
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,300
Consciousness and you just grab
that bag of Funyuns and it, you

649
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,600
know, you just sort of Drown
Your sorrows in it can really

650
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,200
have Ripple effects.
Oh yeah.

651
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,100
I think you know, definitely
being intentional is important.

652
00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,800
No, I think that you know, the
intent is the key.

653
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,100
I think the beauty of the time
period that we're in right now

654
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:19,400
is it's very easy to be cynical.
It's very easy to be

655
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,300
pessimistic.
A stake right now and they truly

656
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:25,100
because we have exposure.
It's not that - things have not

657
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,300
been happening at the rates that
they're happening now.

658
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:30,800
It's because it's that we know
that those things are happy.

659
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,500
Yes, things are getting worse in
some areas.

660
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,400
So I'm not minimizing or
dismissing certain things, but

661
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,200
crime has always occurred.
Suicide has always occurred

662
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:42,600
violence towards others has
always occurred suppression of

663
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,800
people.
Marginalization of people has

664
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,500
always occurred now.
We're just hyper aware of what's

665
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:51,000
going on now.
Now, we have a decision that we

666
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,700
can make collectively and
individually in terms of how we

667
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,400
going to use social media, you
talked about intent.

668
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,000
So when you make a post or you
intentional about why you're

669
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,400
making that Pope, are you aware
that you are putting out there?

670
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,400
Positive facade, when things are
not so great at home and then

671
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,800
are you aware that?
What that contribute?

672
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,199
Oh, everything is great with
Uncle.

673
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,199
You just posted a picture from
the holidays, with his family.

674
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,400
But really what's happening
behind the scenes is x y z.

675
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,900
So when I think it's just having
that Awareness, and having

676
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,400
having some intent behind that.
What's been great.

677
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Is seeing more people post, real
passions, real experiences that

678
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,000
they're having.
This was a really difficult

679
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,800
month for me, or I got laid off
or my wife and I have been

680
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,600
struggling with having a baby.
Those are stories that I'm

681
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,100
hearing more and more about
that.

682
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:40,500
I know I know our parents
Generations experience

683
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:42,800
miscarriages, but you know
what's unique is?

684
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,199
I'm hearing more and more from
my female friends when they do

685
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,600
have a miscarriage or they go
through IVF or something like

686
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,600
that.
And it's not like this.

687
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:52,100
Carriages are new thing, but
it's something that more and

688
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:55,400
more people are talking about.
So, in the same light for men,

689
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,300
and our mental health, we have
all experienced some sort of

690
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:02,000
struggle in this area.
It's just now we're talking

691
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,600
about it.
So it feels like there's more

692
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,400
people for us to connect to and
I think that's the beauty of

693
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,200
social media.
Nowadays is that we have those

694
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Avenues to have these
conversations in such a

695
00:35:12,207 --> 00:35:15,800
widespread way rather than in a
one-on-one setting which is also

696
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,200
powerful.
Also important, but we need it

697
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,000
at the various levels.
I think it's always really

698
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,200
important to find a balance
Tehran go, right?

699
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,400
Because it's just I love yes I
100% agree with you that I love

700
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,500
the fact that there's more
transparency and there's more

701
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:33,500
dialogue because for me
particular, like when I shared

702
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:35,500
my story about, you know,
struggling with bipolar

703
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,800
disorder, you know that article
that I was in Psychology today?

704
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,200
I got a lot of people on
LinkedIn saying, you know.

705
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,700
Wow.
You know, that took a lot of

706
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:47,300
courage and either, you know, I
myself have struggled with it or

707
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:49,600
I have a family member, this is
going to help.

708
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:53,200
Oops, / some of that dialogue.
Now what I really want to see

709
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,800
happen is for there to be a
solution oriented perspective

710
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,000
with a lot of these activities
because it is easy to Piper,

711
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,500
pathologize, right?
This is happening on Tick-Tock.

712
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:06,300
All the time, there was
something about, like,

713
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,300
Tourette's there were girls who
were somehow all of a sudden.

714
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:13,300
This diagnosis of Tourette's was
exploding because a lot of these

715
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:16,500
girls were seeing the symptoms
and convincing themselves to

716
00:36:16,508 --> 00:36:18,600
that.
So but I think what you're doing

717
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,700
definitely is Of the, what I
would say that the correct way

718
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,800
to use social media, which is
number one to create Community.

719
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,900
Number two, you know, to Spur
dialogue.

720
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:30,800
Number three is, yeah, just to
arrive at a solution because

721
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,100
again, at the end of the day, if
somebody says, you know what

722
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,700
I've been sitting on this for
too long, I've been suffering in

723
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:43,000
silence, I need to go get help
or a sibling, or a loved one.

724
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:46,600
Then as the kids say, you win
and social media today, one of

725
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,500
the precepts of until your life
is about.

726
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:53,200
Owning your health and Breaking
Free of templates for managing

727
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,000
our mental and physical health.
Now, you know, with mental

728
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,600
health, obviously cognitive
therapy medication.

729
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,400
Those are what I would call
table Stakes.

730
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:04,900
There's so much more that needs
to be done.

731
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:08,500
And we've had guests on here
that are specialists in ayurveda

732
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,400
or pranayama yoga.
And what I would say is, you

733
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,300
know, we literally wrote the
book on this stuff.

734
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:16,400
So it's good to see that.
We're embracing it more.

735
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:20,100
I wanted to hear more, maybe
your views on a lot of He's

736
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,000
Eastern approaches to mental
Wellness in terms of breath work

737
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,000
in meditation.
If you could talk to me about

738
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,000
that a little bit things are
from a cultural standpoint.

739
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,900
Things that have we are very
familiar with.

740
00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:34,300
I remember as a kid going to a
meditation center with my

741
00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:38,100
parents on a Friday night, I
know that my friends were not

742
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,400
doing the same thing for me.
That's a privilege South.

743
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,100
Asian culture is it's
interesting because you know,

744
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:47,000
earlier we were talking about
model minorities which means in

745
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,700
a very irrational or false kind
of way but Means that we have

746
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:54,100
the ability collectively as a
culture, to pull ourselves, woke

747
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:56,800
to find success in some way.
Sure.

748
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,200
And we have these tools within
our cultural history, that act

749
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,500
in similar ways where we are
able to.

750
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:06,600
Now use mindfulness use
meditation, use guided

751
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,500
breathing, and other exercises
to help our mental health and

752
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,500
our overall Wellness.
Something that happened for me

753
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:16,400
personally, which is as a kid,
if you're right, you're not only

754
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,600
raised around your culture, your
family.

755
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,400
You might tend to All the way
from in your younger years or

756
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,800
teenagers or 20 people tend to
kind of pull away from what they

757
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,100
were taught a little bit and go
explore the world, right?

758
00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:30,300
A little bit.
And then and then what we do as

759
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,300
I think we talked about this
before, right is as we're

760
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:36,100
getting older, we noted perfect
like pulling back into Boomerang

761
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,100
effect.
I would say Boomerang effect,

762
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:41,200
you know, as we get older were
like, oh, I kind of understand

763
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,800
my parents now.
A little bit more.

764
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,800
We get to decide, you know, how
much we want these different

765
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,100
tools as part of our life, the
same way that we get to decide

766
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:52,900
which Value systems which belief
systems we want to carry forward

767
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:56,400
with us and which of those we
don't need or don't have any

768
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,600
interest in just because we are
from this culture doesn't mean

769
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,800
that we have to practice yoga
practice pranayama, breathing.

770
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,700
These are tools that are at our
disposal.

771
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,300
I didn't create these tools,
nobody in my family at least in

772
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:11,800
my last several Generations
created, these tools rather just

773
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,700
have the benefit of being from a
culture where these tools were

774
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,800
created thousands of years ago.
And so we have, you know, maybe

775
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,400
an inside track.
To these has a tools which are

776
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,900
the tools that we use in therapy
to practice, breathing is to

777
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,900
practice the control to take the
focus away from something that's

778
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:33,100
outside of your control.
The first thing that you can do

779
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:34,900
is take control of your
breathing breathing.

780
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:37,500
Like I talked about with my
clients is one of the most

781
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:39,900
beautiful things known to
Nature.

782
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,900
It is one of the only functions
in our body, if not the only

783
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,700
function that is both in
voluntary involuntary you.

784
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:47,800
And I have been breathing this
whole time, but we had probably

785
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,500
not been thinking about our
breath, we go.

786
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,100
Bring up the sound right and now
we're thinking about our breath.

787
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:57,100
So be able to do that.
Is that powerful first step to

788
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,500
taking back a little bit of
control over your thinking over?

789
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:04,700
You're feeling the tools that
you mentioned are just a, some,

790
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:08,900
some ways to get there.
And so, if you have the access

791
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:11,300
to these kinds of tools, if you
have the familiarity with these

792
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:14,400
tools, they're extremely
powerful in terms of getting

793
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,300
started on coping, with
stressors managing difficult

794
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,500
time.
And and and getting to a place

795
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:24,700
where you can allow your brain
and allow yourself to process

796
00:40:24,700 --> 00:40:29,000
trauma and and break cycles that
are unhealthy and dysfunctional.

797
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,200
You know, obviously this podcast
it's called untether your life,

798
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,900
you know, it's about going
outside of templates, whether it

799
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:37,300
be Health Care related, you
know, about like surgery

800
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:40,700
medication for managing our
health or career-wise, you know,

801
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,300
not necessarily Breaking Free of
that.

802
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,300
What I call the doctor engineer,
failure menu of options.

803
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,500
What does that term mean to you
untethering?

804
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,200
Your life.
How have you?

805
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,600
I guess.
Untethered, your life.

806
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,800
And what would you tell the
listeners to help them untether

807
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,300
their lives?
Yeah, so I really love this

808
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:02,300
title and the energy that it
portrays right?

809
00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:05,900
Because I think we sometimes
carry a lot of fear.

810
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,300
Pulling ourselves away.
From what we've known, what

811
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:12,700
we've been taught, what we've
believed our whole life.

812
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:15,400
But untethering yourself doesn't
mean that you remain.

813
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Untethered.
Really.

814
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:23,300
It's a choice and you To be at
the front of that to drive what

815
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:26,200
that whatever that Journey looks
like for you for me, you know,

816
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:27,100
both personally and
professionally.

817
00:41:27,107 --> 00:41:31,400
I've seen, you know, that Venn
diagram has crossed quite a bit

818
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,000
because I got into this field
because of my own struggle, but

819
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,500
also because from an educational
standpoint and intellectual

820
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:40,000
standpoint, it was super
interesting.

821
00:41:40,008 --> 00:41:44,600
This topic and I was able to
marry those two experiences and

822
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,200
interests to create this career.
And the same thing goes with

823
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,200
brown man therapy I had Add to
untether myself for my skewed

824
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,300
belief system about social media
because I was seeing it only as

825
00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:59,000
a - as a contributor to
dysfunction.

826
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,300
So I had to kind of break away
from that belief that social

827
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,100
media is only bad to actually
challenge it because we're not

828
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:10,600
going to sit here and take
Facebook down, or Instagram down

829
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,700
or anything like that that you
know, pranayama yoga,

830
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,100
mindfulness meditation.
These things are here to stay

831
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,600
for.
A reason, there is a benefit and

832
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,000
that's the other thing.
And I want to remind people of

833
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,700
there is a benefit even to the
negative things in our life.

834
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:27,800
There is a benefits depression
at that moment that you are

835
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,600
depressed, it doesn't always
look like it.

836
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,700
But there is a reason that your
brain went into depression that

837
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,300
your body went into depression
by untethering, by pulling

838
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:40,500
yourself apart from things that
you might believe or patterns

839
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,300
communication Styles
relationship habits.

840
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:46,300
All that means is that you don't
remain untethered, but that you

841
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:51,400
get to come back to which Styles
which beliefs Which pattern you

842
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,500
choose to keep because they are
healthy because they're helpful

843
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,200
and because they're effective
for your lifestyle and your

844
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,500
goals.
And so why I love untether, your

845
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:02,800
life is really, that's what
we're doing at the beginning of

846
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,600
therapy.
Not all at once.

847
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,800
That's the scary part about
entering therapies, like, I'm

848
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,600
going to question everything in
my life, absolutely not.

849
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,500
But we might pick and choose a
couple areas that you question,

850
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:18,300
you process, you explore the.
Hey, you know, one of the most

851
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,100
powerful questions that my This
is ever asked me that I ask my

852
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:24,100
clients now is, how did you come
to learn this?

853
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:27,700
And really that is so applicable
because we don't always think

854
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,100
that way we just act out of
having templates.

855
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:32,300
Right.
So about templates here and and

856
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:35,200
so templates are important,
templates are helpful to get us

857
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,700
started yet.
Not all to get us started and

858
00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:40,400
then sometimes we realize hey I
got to rewrite this whole thing

859
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,600
and that's okay because it's
never it's never too late to

860
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,700
make that change to untether
yourself from something that is

861
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:51,000
no longer working and And I
think you and I have lived

862
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,300
enough years to recognize that
at different points, we would

863
00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:56,500
have untethered ourselves from
different styles of living and

864
00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:58,000
we wouldn't have been wrong or
right.

865
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,100
It would have just been a matter
of choice for us.

866
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:03,500
And so I think that's the thing
that I want to you know, kind of

867
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:07,900
leave out there is untethering
is is not a loss of control.

868
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,800
It's actually you getting more
control just over different

869
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,000
parts of life that you choose.
And so it's really important to

870
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,100
have that reframing that
understanding I think when

871
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,000
you're entering something like
therapy that you are Actually

872
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,100
doing this to gain more control
over your life and your

873
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:25,500
reactions to things that life
throws at you.

874
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,000
I love that.
I love the way you frame that

875
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,500
because the analogy I always use
like corporations, you know,

876
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:33,800
when you go on these retreats to
have those trust fall exercises,

877
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,400
right, where you fall back and
you know, you're supposed to and

878
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,800
that's really what therapy is.
It is it is a matter of letting

879
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,500
go of that tether that mindset,
you know, that may be

880
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:46,800
destructive.
So I think you definitely you

881
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,200
nailed it.
I think you have a good

882
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,100
understanding of In your life.
So it's that that's one of the

883
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:53,900
reasons I was really glad to
have you on the show.

884
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:55,600
So on court has been a great
discussion.

885
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,200
Where can people find you?
Yeah, so you can find me on

886
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,900
Instagram at brownman therapy
and hopefully very soon.

887
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:04,700
You'll find me on YouTube, as
well.

888
00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:08,400
Under brown man therapy, I'm
happy to send me a message on

889
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,500
Instagram.
I'm happy to give you any

890
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:13,500
insight.
I can into your journey with

891
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,700
mental health care specific
questions, or you're not sure

892
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:19,100
where to start in terms of
finding a professional and happy

893
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:20,700
to point you.
In the right direction.

894
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,800
Sounds great.
Well, thanks so much ankur.

895
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,600
This was a great discussion,
really happy to have you on, and

896
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,000
hope to hope to keep the
dialogue going and keep this

897
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,100
momentum of this movement going.
So thanks again.

898
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:33,600
Thanks.
Thank you, thanks so much for

899
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,000
listening and I hope you enjoyed
that episode four, more of these

900
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,600
types of conversations.
Please visit us at untether,

901
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,700
your life that Co you can also
find us on Instagram at untether

902
00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:47,500
your life, as well as on Apple
Spotify, and other platforms by

903
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:49,200
searching for untether your
life.

904
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,100
And if you did enjoy this
episode, please leave us a

905
00:45:52,107 --> 00:45:54,900
review or share it with someone
who might also benefit.

906
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,900
Thanks.
And until the next time we meet

907
00:45:57,900 --> 00:45:50,700
stay untethered.
And if you did enjoy this

908
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,600
episode, please leave us a
review or share it with someone

909
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,100
who might also benefit.
Thanks.

910
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,200
And until the next time we meet
stay untethered.