20: Guest Appearance on Immigrantly Podcast with Saadia Khan

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Okay.
So I am so glad that we are

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doing this, and thank you guys
for being so patient with me

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through this content ordeal but
I'm really excited.

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And today we are going to talk
about something extremely

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extremely important, which is
mental health and its impact on

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relationships.
Something that both of you have

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talked about extensively.
So before we delve in, can you

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both introduce yourselves and
just give Thought story as to

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who you are.
So I'm Sally sued and

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entrepreneur author as well as
mental health, Advocate and

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mother of three as well.
So, you know, the kill and I, my

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husband here were married for 20
years and he was suffering from

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undiagnosed.
Bipolar disorder for nearly two

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decades.
So I eventually helped save his

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life, you know, he had quite a
journey to his healing and his

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whole Process.
I've been doing some Visa John

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both of you and it seems like
there's so much to unpack,

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right?
And I'm just trying to think,

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where do we start?
But Shelly, what I have noticed

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is that both of you have had
different Journeys.

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When it comes to dealing with
nickels, bipolar disorder,

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you've had your own Journey,
he's had his own and then add

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immigrant identity pressures of
being, you know, this alpha male

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career kids, all of that in
there.

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And it's a recipe for disaster,
right?

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But I want to focus on healing.
How has the healing been for

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both of you so far?
And what have you learned

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through this process?
First of all shouting.

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Oh, thanks so much for having us
and I really appreciate you

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braving the elements as they
say, to make this happen.

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So we're really excited for this
discussion.

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So to add to what Shelley was
saying.

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So, yeah, I have been suffering
from undiagnosed.

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And bipolar disorder for about
two decades.

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I recently got my diagnosis
about five years ago and you

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know, I learned firsthand what
the difficulties are with stigma

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of mental health, within the
South Asian Community just

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because as you note noted before
about the need to achieve, the

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need to live up to that
immigrant ideal was really

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challenging but fortunately with
Shelly's, help and some work

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that I've done.
I was able to to overcome that,

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I think it really for me, it
starts with humility and

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awareness because that was
something that was not.

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It was not in my wheelhouse as
they say, for so many years

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because, you know, I'd gone to a
top business school.

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I had worked at a lot of the top
consulting firm some of the top

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Banks.
And it really just wasn't in my

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vocabulary was just about the
whole grin.

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And Barrett take the stoic
approach and the merits of grits

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and Of attitude.
So it really took a real

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bottoming out for me to wake up
and Shelly, says smell the

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cappuccino and realized that,
you know, I really needed some

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help.
I think for me, it was, you

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know, I often times with mental
health, I think about in

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Corporate America, how they have
those trust exercises, you know,

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where there's a group of people,
and you sort of fall back,

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that's really, what was the
springboard from my recovery?

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I was trusting in shally and
trusting in her family and

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realizing that they really saw
the real me and saw Beyond just

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some of the behaviors that I was
exhibiting, you know, saw that I

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was a caring, father, caring
husband, you know, someone who

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had a really good sense of humor
and you know, just just had a

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good heart, you know.
So that's really important.

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It part of healing is to have
somebody in your corner.

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Honor and I am very fortunate
and blessed to have that, you

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know, and I really encourage
people who, you know, whether

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it's friend or family or really
seek out that person who really

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knows the real you and we can
and Shelly can add to this also.

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But I think you have to have a
very well-rounded approach and

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you can't rely on one specific
tool over the other.

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So for me, obviously medication
was the start of that.

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That cognitive behavioral
therapy obviously you know

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talking to a good therapist, not
just one who tells you, what you

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want to hear and you know just
ignores kind of what's hiding in

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plain sight more recently.
What's entered into that

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equation is going Beyond those
sort of the table Stakes as they

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say and that would involve like
meditation and mindfulness.

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And that's something showing I
really actively embraced because

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there's so many different
Guru's, I guess you could say

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out there but the one that's
really resonated with us as been

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Deepak Chopra, we went to one of
his Retreats.

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We listened to his meditations
and I think one of the key

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teachings that I've taken away
from that is, you know, the body

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is it's not a noun, it's a verb
and I say that because there's

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so many processes going on in
our mind you know, there's so

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many people who get a diagnosis
you know whether it's Multiple

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sclerosis, or it's something
like arthritis and they sort of

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accept that as fait accompli.
And they don't realize that

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obviously, there's a biological
underpinning to it, but if you

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think about this in a holistic
approach and you think about how

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much control you really have,
you know, I think that can

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really win the day and so
Shelly.

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If you want to add to that one
of my healing process as he

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indicated was meditation through
this whole journey and it Really

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helped me because, you know, it
as Deepak, Chopra puts it, a

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create a chaotic mind, no matter
what the thought is, whether

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it's positive or negative is
still a chaotic mind.

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So really quieting.
That mind was very key to my own

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personal healing journey and you
know it helped us rebuild our

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marriage and find a better place
within ourselves to have a

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fulfilling life.
Have a happy, a good career, a

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happy family life.
Raise our children effectively,

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you know, the other thing that
really drove me is, you know, I

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stopped caring about what other
people think.

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And I think that is one of the
biggest downfalls.

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Whether it is South Asian
culture, whether it is, you

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know, Americans in this country
no matter what they're always

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driven.
Their emotions are driven, a lot

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of times by other people.
You know, I was going to do this

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Shelly because in this day and
age of social media, when social

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media sets up such unrealistic
expectations about relationships

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about marriage, you see these,
you know, picture, perfect, you

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know, Images of people,
vacationing and having good

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time, nobody talks about the
Dark Secrets weaknesses

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anxieties fears that come along
and both of you have been so

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brave in you know just stacking
that head-on and having

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conversations, how hard was it
to, you know, break through that

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and say, you know what, we are
going to share our story and we

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don't care.
As you said, what?

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Others think it was very hard,
it was an evolution.

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It was a Journey for me because
I had made so many mistakes in

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the past.
Like, as you know, South Asians

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were very Collective culture.
Yeah?

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Right.
We're not individualistic.

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We're looking out for our
family.

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Any success that I had or that
nikhil had was a success for me,

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as well.
So any failure that he exhibited

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was a failure for me as well.
So my problem was, I was so

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driven by my ego and I lived in
this world of denial because

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that's just what you do.
And that's how you keep the

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family unit strong, and, you
know, that tend to like,

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suppress his emotions.
So he wasn't able to express

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really what was going on with
him.

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And then one fine day just blew
everything just blew out of the

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water.
You know, it's interesting

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because I was listening to your
podcast interview and you

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mentioned that you were in
denial.

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You just said that right now as
well.

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And what surprised me was that
and you'll make it was

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exhibiting certain, behave
Behavior, right?

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Certain traits.
And I'm sure it must have been

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confusing for you at the time as
to what was happening and why he

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was going through these highs
and lows.

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And when he came to you and he
said, look, this is what I'm

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saying.
Suffering.

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From, in my mind I was thinking
that could have been like, you

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know, this is what it is.
Now we you know, nailed it, we

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know but you were hesitant like
they were some reticence to even

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accept that and you you know,
tied that to, you know, being a

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reflection on who you are and
taking it as your failure.

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Exactly.
Do incredible.

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Yeah, so can you talk a little
bit about that?

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That was the biggest mistake of
my life.

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And you know when he had decided
to file for divorce divorce and

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everything and our family was in
such turmoil at that moment in

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time when this happened, I
looked back.

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And I thought about why didn't I
accept it?

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Why did not have?
I was I so busy with the

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children with my job, with
whatever outside distractions

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that I was not looking within
our own family in it and I think

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that is a big problem because
people really don't step back.

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Sit down and think about what's
going on in their family,

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Dynamic.
You know, there's tremendous

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amount of judgment has yard
approach, both your approach.

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And I want to pose this question
for to both of you towards your

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kids changed because of the
process or the trauma that

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you've gone through, are you
more aware and mindful of, you

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know, we are kids behavior.
And if they have any questions

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and if they have any fears, are
you more attentive to that?

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Now versus say, I don't know, 10
years.

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The go.
I think the biggest thing for me

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was just keeping up with the
Joneses, or I guess, in our, in

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our culture, be keeping up with
the James.

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I don't know what it is.
It's just, you know, we are part

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of a Sunday school group and
every week, you know, we would

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have to go there and I thought
initially, these kinds of

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activities were great for
educating our kids about the

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culture, but it became very
competitive, you know, it just

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became about well, you know
what?

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How many activities Tivities is
your kid in or you know what?

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How many spelling bees did your
your daughter Rin?

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And that was very toxic, not
just for us, but for the kids

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and I just think back to when
you know when we were growing up

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and a lot of our achievement was
just the trophies on our mantle

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or a proxy for our worth in our
parents eyes.

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Maybe that's not, maybe that's
definitely not the reality but

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that was the perception that we
had.

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So you know if some other kid
Want to tennis tournament and

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we, you know, got knocked out in
the first round, you know, we

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were not worthy and so that I
needed a lot of retraining in my

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mind.
And I think about, you know, I

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think specifically about our son
because he's just such a

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brilliant kid.
And I mean, you know, he's going

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to go so far.
And but, you know, he's one of

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these square peg in a round
hole.

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And if we were trying to apply
that conventional template of,

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you know, X number of trophies
equals, You know, a score or

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whatever the worth in our eyes,
it would just crush him and you

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know, my hope is that and the
other example would be like our

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daughter.
She's she's an artist, she's an

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illustrator and she's going to
the top illustration School in

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the country.
This fall for college and that

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was a very unconventional career
path.

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And I got to say, I mean, for me
it was it was hard.

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I'm very proud of her not Her
accomplishments but just she's a

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good person at the end of the
day, I mean it's about what

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they're taking away and it's
about how well adjusted they

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feel and how secure they feel
because we want our grandkids

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also to have that, you know,
sense of stability and

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self-worth.
So, yeah, you know, to me,

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motherhood has changed quite a
bit.

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I was exactly the same way.
How has it changed?

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You know, I was more about
keeping up with the Joneses just

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like everybody else.
And now, if my children are

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happy They're healthy and
they're pursuing their own

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dreams, not my dreams for that,
but their own dreams, then

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they're going to live a great
life and I feel like that's my

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job.
And if I can do that then yeah,

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I feel like I'm a good mother,
you know, both of you.

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Bring up such important points.
And most of what we are talking

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about is not linear, right?
So it's one thing doesn't lead

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to another.
I feel like as immigrants

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because I am an immigrant
parent, you guys are second gen.

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So for you it's it may be a bit
different but A lot of times,

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00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:32,900
immigrant parents are harder
than on themselves and on their

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kids, right?
Because somehow, they are trying

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to find validation for leaving
their home country.

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Moving to a new country.
He started.

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And in a way we pass on that
trauma that you know, alienation

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those fears onto our kids.
So I'm sure both your parents to

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some extent passed on that.
At to both of you and nickel,

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00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:00,700
you've talked about your mom,
right?

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You've talked about how she
hasn't been diagnosed with

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00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,000
bipolar disorder but you think
she may have it.

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00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:10,600
And I remember one thing you
said on one of your interviews

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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,900
was that she said something like
I never had stress going out,

237
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:15,500
right?
That's good.

238
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,100
It's also being in a
collectivist society, right?

239
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:34,700
So I grew up in Pakistan, I had
family extended, family,

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00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:39,800
cousins, Aunts Uncles, even if
you have stress it's somehow, I

241
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,500
think she'll do you Shield it
from it in a way or you are not

242
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,700
as mindful of it.
It's not part of your

243
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:49,800
Consciousness because there is
so much else going on and there

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is so much support.
But when we come here, it's a

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nation it's you know being alone
and I'm sure it's It's the same

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00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200
for both of you because as
second gen kids, you don't have

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your immediate family close by
right was that the case for both

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00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:07,800
of you?
They're close by, they're not in

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the same town.
It's definitely nothing.

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Like what you see in India,
where families, you know, that

251
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,400
he grew up in the same house
and, you know, your grandparents

252
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,300
and you see them every day.
It wasn't wasn't like that for

253
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,700
sure.
Yeah, so tell me a little bit

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00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:27,500
about your book, both of you
have written written a book as

255
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,600
well.
What does it contains?

256
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,300
Can you give us some Snippets of
what people can expect from it?

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00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:38,500
So untethered is it's a do?
Boys, about a South Asian

258
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:42,500
family, whose spouse suffered
from mental illness and when I

259
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:46,800
say do a voice, I mean it is my
voice as well as Nikki's voice

260
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,700
and it's very interesting
because it's really never been

261
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:53,900
done because you know, there's
one incident that happens per se

262
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,400
and I have a certain analysis of
it, right?

263
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,800
But the kills analysis could be
completely opposite from what I

264
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,600
was thinking.
So it gives a very interesting

265
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,500
perspective to the caretaker And
somebody suffering from mental

266
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:09,700
illness as well as both
perspectives.

267
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:15,200
So that can be an example of a
situation where your

268
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,500
perspectives were completely
different.

269
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,100
Sure.
So, when he had filed for

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00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:25,200
divorce, he had said to me, you
know, stop this load.

271
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,100
If you're trying to dislocate my
shoulder, you're trying to hurt

272
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:31,700
me, you know?
And he was exhibiting paranoia,

273
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:35,400
he was somewhat delusional at
the time versus me, I was

274
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,300
tapping on.
His shoulder trying to talk to

275
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,700
him, trying to figure out what
happened to our marriage.

276
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:44,300
Why did it fall apart suddenly?
So that's just a prime example

277
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:49,700
of his perception of what was
real and true versus what I saw

278
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,500
as real and true.
And so, I was able to eventually

279
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:57,200
when I came to grips with what
was happening, understand that

280
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,400
this illness is, it's an illness
exactly that, you know, and it

281
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,700
has to be separated from the
individual and their

282
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,599
Personality.
And I knew his heart, I knew his

283
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,500
heart and his soul was pure and
a he was a beautiful person

284
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:14,599
inside.
So I knew what he was exhibiting

285
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:21,000
and showing me was an illness.
When did you Nikolai because you

286
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,599
initiated divorce?
When did you decide not to

287
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,500
pursue it like, was that a
moment was there some trigger

288
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,300
when you said, you know, I'm not
going to pursue it.

289
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,500
I think the universe kind of
decided that for me because You

290
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:41,100
know as what as very common with
people with bipolar disorder,

291
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,300
there comes a point where you
know, as they say the scales

292
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:49,200
kind of fell and you're living
in this fantasy world.

293
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,000
Where you know you're on top of
the world, everyone else is

294
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,700
beneath you and you know, you
can, you can just do whatever

295
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,400
Financial constraints.
Don't matter, you know, health

296
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,700
concerns don't matter.
And I reached a point where, you

297
00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:06,000
know, I didn't have a job.
I did.

298
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,200
A place to live, you know, I had
my friends quote unquote, but,

299
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,000
you know, I was completely
estranged from my family and,

300
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,100
you know, I don't want to get
too much into my relationship

301
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:20,800
with my parents.
I mean, I think deep down

302
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,800
they're good people but, you
know, unfortunately, it's not a

303
00:18:23,808 --> 00:18:28,200
relationship that is, you know,
really in place right now.

304
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,600
But my Shelly jewelry should
have shared with me a comment

305
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,200
that my dad made when she She
was, you know, there was no

306
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,500
reason for her to try to help me
at that point.

307
00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:43,800
Because like I said, I had filed
for divorce, you know, I was

308
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,200
just hell bent on just walking
away from this marriage and you

309
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,500
know what was interesting?
Was she told me, I guess, my dad

310
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:57,600
had basically intimated that
this was all a plan and that,

311
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,200
you know, I wasn't really going
through any of this and that I

312
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,300
was, you know, conning her.
And he actually called me a

313
00:19:03,308 --> 00:19:06,000
sociopath and, you know, I hate
to dredge up the past.

314
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,000
Ask.
But I bring that up because

315
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,500
there comes a point, you know,
when you get sort of like a gut

316
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,800
punch, you know, and you and you
realize you sort of have the rug

317
00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:19,600
pulled out from under you.
And at that point, I said to

318
00:19:19,608 --> 00:19:24,400
myself, okay, whatever I'm doing
and I thought it had been

319
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,900
working all this time.
It ain't cutting it anymore.

320
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:32,500
So I basically turned my whole
self over to Shelley, you know,

321
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:35,700
it's interesting when they talk
about Alcoholics Anonymous, you

322
00:19:35,708 --> 00:19:38,300
know, they They say, one of the
precepts of that is turning

323
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,800
yourself over to a higher power.
And, you know, I have the higher

324
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,900
power seeing right here is just
basically like I and again, I

325
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:49,700
mean, I'm indescribably
fortunate and blessed because

326
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:53,100
there are a lot of people who,
you know, their spouses would

327
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:55,400
have given up on them, it wasn't
that bad.

328
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,700
But and that and honestly at
that point, the term divorce

329
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:02,400
wasn't even in the equation at
that point.

330
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:07,300
I mean, it was just literally
like, you know, like A person, I

331
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:08,900
think about it.
Like a person who was

332
00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:11,200
Shipwrecked in, they're drowning
at Sea.

333
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,400
They're not talking about, hey,
maybe I can save 10 bucks on my

334
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,000
ear internet, at that point,
that that was about the level of

335
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,800
the priority was like, I just
wanted to save my life.

336
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,200
I wanted to get my relationship
back with my kids and at that

337
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,300
point Shelly, you know, wasn't
even the the marriage hadn't

338
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,400
even occurred to me.
But as I saw, you know how much

339
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,200
belief she had in me as I saw
it.

340
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,800
You know how much commission?
It meant there was, you know, it

341
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,400
did everything just kind of fell
into place and that was, you

342
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,500
know, that was, when I decided,
you know, call the dogs off,

343
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:53,600
call this call the rock pile,
you have such an inspiring

344
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,800
story, but I want to get into,
you know, your head space and

345
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,700
what you were thinking at the
time.

346
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,900
And why did you decide to just
stick it out like, You know,

347
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,000
despite everything that was
happening.

348
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,100
I love you all.
So I had given up on the

349
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,500
marriage at the point.
When Noah was getting treatment.

350
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:16,500
Yeah, I had given up on the
marriage and my main Pursuit was

351
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,100
that this man.
I want him to be a good father

352
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:22,300
to my children, he can be a good
father to my children and I want

353
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:24,200
to give that to my children and
my family.

354
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,100
And so I had pushed the
marriage, totally aside,

355
00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:32,100
mentally, and I did not deal
with the marriage, until he

356
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:34,800
moved back to into the house.
And, you know, he actually lived

357
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,000
in the basement for a couple of
months.

358
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,800
Months because I needed to heal,
I needed to process everything.

359
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,700
I wasn't ready to jump back into
this marriage.

360
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:46,700
When I had so much to process
myself, I had so much internal

361
00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:50,600
healing to do myself that the
marriage was really a low

362
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,100
priority.
It was more about his health,

363
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:58,800
that's that's amazing.
Now, in gives off South Asian

364
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,900
Community.
Specifically, I grew up in

365
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,600
Pakistan, your parents are from
India.

366
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,000
So it's like, culturally, we are
pretty similar.

367
00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:12,400
Believe it or not, what do you
think are some of the challenges

368
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,000
we are still facing in South
Asian communities?

369
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,300
When it comes to having these
open and honest conversations

370
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:24,400
around mental health mental
illness healing because

371
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,700
sometimes I feel like in South
Asian Community, especially

372
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:32,900
among immigrants like myself, we
still think of it as a vested

373
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,100
contract.
It's not something that happens

374
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:37,200
to us.
It's thing that's been created

375
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,300
in the west that, you know,
people who have, you know, don't

376
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,500
have other issues to think about
them just focus on this.

377
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,700
So, how do we change that
narrative?

378
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:50,200
Go ahead.
I was going to say, I mean, the,

379
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:54,100
the collective concept that you
talked about earlier, so

380
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:58,600
important, and I don't really
fault immigrants for their

381
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,000
views, on mental health and
that's because, you know, for

382
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,800
second generation immigrants.
The thing is, we have, you know,

383
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,000
our Our peers, we have the
Indian Community, they have the

384
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:15,400
temple but there's not really
that equation of that Community

385
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,700
with family.
You have to remember like when

386
00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:21,000
our parents came here, first of
all, you know, my our parents

387
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,500
Shelly and my they're from the
same Community, they were both

388
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:29,000
in Toledo, which is a not a very
diverse town and this was in the

389
00:23:29,008 --> 00:23:31,400
70s.
So you got to remember, I mean,

390
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,300
you know, they were pretty much,
I mean, the term used to be

391
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,500
called illegal.
Aliens.

392
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:40,200
And I mean, that's because a lot
of the perception of immigrants

393
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,400
in this country was just, they
were other, you know what I

394
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,100
mean?
Yeah.

395
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,900
So really in that context.
When you don't have anyone, you

396
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:52,300
band together, this is basically
a proxy for your family.

397
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:58,200
And so coming out and admitting
any weakness, when it's

398
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,000
something like mental illness,
which is so misunderstood and

399
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,900
demonize literally demonized and
India that I mean, I would say

400
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:10,800
it's beyond courage.
I mean, I think it takes a lot

401
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,500
of audacity to take that jump
because literally, you're coming

402
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:20,000
out and you're, you know, saying
to these people who have been

403
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,400
your Lifeline that you know, hey
I'm I'm damaged goods or

404
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,000
whatever.
Obviously, I don't think that

405
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:30,300
but and I think that, you know,
even in the 97, not the night,

406
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:32,200
even in the, what are we in the
20s?

407
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,600
God, I feel old.
With all this information coming

408
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,400
out with all these people, you
know, sharing their stories and

409
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,000
social media.
And there's still so much

410
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,300
entrenched shame, and fear, and
that's part of, that's part of

411
00:24:51,308 --> 00:24:52,800
our book.
I mean, the book is called

412
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,000
untethered, and that's really
what it comes down to is it's

413
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,700
about breaking free of that
false safety net, you know.

414
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:07,400
Because at the end of the day I
mean you're You have this sense

415
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,700
that you know, I have this
quote-unquote community and

416
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,900
they're like my family but
you're harboring a lot of this

417
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:16,100
hurt and this dysfunction
inside.

418
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,600
So you know, on the surface as
you alluded to earlier, I mean

419
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,300
if on Instagram and Facebook you
have this beautifully curated

420
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:27,000
collection of you know World
travels and your kid winning the

421
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,700
spelling bee it's all Bs, right?
And so so that's what it is.

422
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,900
It's just a fear of, you know,
it's almost like an elf.

423
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,900
So, like, when a kids learning
to swim, you know, a fear of

424
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:40,900
pulling out the paddleboard of
the floaties.

425
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,800
And so that's really what our
book gets into.

426
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:49,300
It talks about untethering, your
life, and getting rid of those

427
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:55,600
shackles, because it's a false
sense of security that really in

428
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,100
the end can really be
destructive more than anything.

429
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,600
Yeah, I would agree.
And additionally, I think

430
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,400
there's so many other factors
rights, especially people who

431
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,000
identify as male we Have certain
expectations, we have certain, I

432
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:17,300
guess, idea of what, you know,
cisgender male looks like or how

433
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:21,400
they act and that in itself can
be problematic, right?

434
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,400
Because then you can't show
vulnerability.

435
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,600
You can't show anxiety weakness.
How did you overcome that

436
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,100
nickel?
I mean, it's still, it's still

437
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:33,000
something I'm struggling with
every day.

438
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,300
I would, I'd be lying if I say
that, you know, I've I've become

439
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,200
the perfectly idealized version
of myself.

440
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,700
I mean, you know it's just
something that I remind myself,

441
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:48,500
you know, I remind myself of
what I have.

442
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:55,100
I just remind myself that
there's no there's no benefit

443
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:59,100
in, you know, being that person.
Obviously, I'm still very

444
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:01,500
driven.
I, you know, I'm very grateful

445
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,400
to my parents for helping
provide me with the education

446
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,800
that allowed me to get A good
career I had to, you know, pivot

447
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,600
quite a bit, you know, going
from high stress, high power,

448
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,700
you know, banking career into
something that's, you know, it's

449
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:19,600
obviously we're here to make
money but it's more altruistic,

450
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,000
it's more, it's more about
helping humanity and so that's

451
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,500
really what it is.
It's just I always, you know, my

452
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,500
buzzword meters going off but at
the end of the day it's

453
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:34,800
gratitude it's just about
stopping to think like okay you

454
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,200
know, and in the initial All
stages of my recovery.

455
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,500
There was a lot of, oh, you
know, I was making this amazing

456
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:43,400
salary before.
I was, you know, traveling all

457
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,300
around.
I had all these great names on

458
00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:47,900
my resume but I was miserable
inside.

459
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:53,000
So even though success looks a
lot different right now, at the

460
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,900
end of the day I mean it's just
about gratitude and it's about

461
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:58,400
remembering it's about
remembering what I have.

462
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,800
How do you focus on gratitude?
Like what is there a ritual you

463
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,100
followed to you know, Just keep
track of what you have, what you

464
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:14,800
want, you want to have.
Um, you know, obviously, and

465
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,500
that's what I was alluding to
earlier about the buzzword m

466
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:20,600
going off, is that, you know,
you go to Target, they've got

467
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,800
all these gratitude journals.
You've got my go on YouTube,

468
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,900
there's like how to be more
grateful but for me it's just,

469
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,200
it goes back a lot to the simple
things and going back to a

470
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,000
Deepak Chopra said about the
body being a verb and not a

471
00:28:37,008 --> 00:28:40,300
noun.
It's about mindfulness and

472
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,500
taking that breath.
Because this happens all the

473
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:46,000
time and Shelly, you know,
agree, it's like in our

474
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,300
business, you know, sometimes
will get an email from somebody

475
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:52,400
and it'll just it'll just drive
me nuts, but I will literally

476
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,700
step back.
I'll take a deep breath and I

477
00:28:54,708 --> 00:28:57,700
will say maybe that person is
going through something in their

478
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:00,300
life.
That's, you know, not not great.

479
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:05,700
I've been there before and yeah,
I mean it's just about, it's

480
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:11,100
really just about keeping, I
guess, keeping my eye on how far

481
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:15,600
I've come.
And and not not succumbing to

482
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,900
that desire to, you know, judge
my life based on that template,

483
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:24,700
that was handed down.
I agree, and I think it's a

484
00:29:24,708 --> 00:29:29,200
major reprogramming and the one
thing you know, that I take away

485
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:35,000
and learn the last 67 years is
not to be reactive to what else

486
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,100
is going on around me and be
more proactive.

487
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,100
And so once I learned how to do
that through meditation, Tation

488
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:46,000
through my mindfulness
techniques, I was able to turn

489
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,400
off that noise and exhibit my
creativity and launch a company

490
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,400
and, you know, work on a book
and all this other things that

491
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,900
really gave my, it was soul food
to me.

492
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,500
So I think it's so important for
everybody to find their soul

493
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:05,300
food.
In the end if you want, whoever

494
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:10,900
is watching this or even people
who listened to your podcast if

495
00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:14,900
you want.
One thing, one take away and I

496
00:30:14,908 --> 00:30:16,800
know it's hard.
Like they could be millions,

497
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,700
they do is right now.
What would it be?

498
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:23,400
You want to go first?
So, I think the most important

499
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,100
thing is, you know, yes, your
family is important.

500
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:31,200
Your children part in your
spouse is important, right?

501
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:35,200
But you have to remember, you
are also important, and you

502
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,100
really need to look within
yourself and what makes you

503
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:41,400
happy.
And I think as a South Asian

504
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:46,100
Asian mother and entrepreneur,
you know, it's difficult to see

505
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:49,600
that and the only way to do that
is to step back from everything

506
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,100
that's going on around you.
You know what your kill children

507
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:57,600
need what your husband means and
to look within yourself, what is

508
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,600
one thing that brings you total
Joy?

509
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,600
Because a lot of times, you
know, these these degenerative

510
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,100
conditions and these diseases
come up because there is not

511
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:10,300
just you know, only 5% are
really attributed to a gene

512
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,600
mutation.
And the rest is all about your

513
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,900
environment and all about how
you are, you know, exhibiting

514
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,600
yourself and living your life.
What you're eating, what you're

515
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,200
feeling, what your subconscious
mind is really thinking.

516
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,100
So I'd say that would be my
biggest thing was shady.

517
00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:28,900
What does happiness mean to you
then?

518
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:38,200
In This Moment. happiness is
Abundance to me.

519
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:42,500
And I, when I say abundance, I
don't mean Financial abundance.

520
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,800
I mean, emotional, abundance,
and internal wealth.

521
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,900
I love it.
And what about you, Nicole?

522
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:56,500
I guess I would say the takeaway
really should be, don't

523
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,400
subscribe to any template.
That's that's been thrust upon

524
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,500
you.
I mean obviously respect for

525
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:06,400
your parents is very important
and you know that's something

526
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,100
that we want our kids to
remember is that, you know, we

527
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:11,700
did really did bring them into
this life.

528
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,300
We have had many Sleepless
sleepless nights, you know,

529
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:17,600
financially.
So we've had to struggle and

530
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,500
strive to help them, but at the
end of the day, we don't want,

531
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:28,000
we don't personally want them to
feel that we've been, you know,

532
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,300
that we've given them this
impossible, standard to live up

533
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:35,200
to.
So I would say that would be the

534
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,300
number one.
Takeaway is just not to have

535
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,700
this one-size-fits-all about
what it really means to make it.

536
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,200
As long as you know, you can
sleep.

537
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:50,300
See, at night, I mean, as long
as, you know, you're comfortable

538
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:54,800
with what you're contributing to
society, as long as you're, you

539
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,000
know, happy with the impact
you're making.

540
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,800
Then, you know, I in my mind,
that's that would be making it.

541
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,500
And then I guess your second
question about what does

542
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,700
happiness mean?
So obviously Shelley use the

543
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:13,900
word abundant so I can't use it.
But, you know, it's a simple

544
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:15,800
term.
It's just like gratitude.

545
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,100
But it's a simple term that I
think is so powerful and that is

546
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:24,800
awareness, you know, I guess
what I would say is it's like

547
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,500
when you go to the museum and
you look at a painting, you

548
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:30,800
know, when you when you get up
close, there's so many little

549
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,500
dots and there's so many little
details that you can really, you

550
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:37,800
know, it can be overwhelming,
can you imagine, you know, your

551
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,600
brain trying to process all
those individual pieces of

552
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,700
stimulus?
Whereas when you step back, you

553
00:33:44,708 --> 00:33:46,700
know, you see this beautiful
Astri.

554
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,200
You know, my art history lessons
are kind of escaping right now.

555
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,600
But I think that's impressionist
painting.

556
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,500
I can't remember.
I should know more I guess since

557
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:59,400
my daughter is such accomplished
artists but the point is it's

558
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,900
just about really seeing the
forest for the trees and that

559
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,700
means not just kind of
externally.

560
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:12,300
But also internally it's about
understanding you know, the

561
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,600
processes in your body.
It's about when you're stressed

562
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,100
out not You know, getting into
that fight or flight response

563
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:25,800
that's you know so easy to jump
into and sort of at quieting

564
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,000
that Reptilian Brain you know
the Primitive fight or flight

565
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,900
response.
And so yeah I mean I think for

566
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:37,300
me that's that's really what
What happiness means is looking

567
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:41,300
at what you have looking at, you
know who you are.

568
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,300
And you know just really taking
stock of what.

569
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:48,900
You know what God has given you
regardless of your religion?

570
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:52,000
I mean what God what the
universe has provided for you?

571
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,000
And really embracing the
present?

572
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,400
You know, not not dredging up
the past not getting depressed

573
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:07,800
by your previous mistakes or
not, not Conjuring up some, you

574
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,500
know, doomsday scenario, that
might happen in the future.

575
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:14,900
So really just, I mean the
bottom line is the present is a

576
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:16,000
gift.
Yeah.

577
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,100
And so that's, you know, she's
Enos aside my apologies but

578
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:22,600
that's really kind of my key.
Takeaways.

579
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,500
I love you.
Thank you so much both of you

580
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:29,600
and we did it finally, with all
the glitches and all they

581
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,600
conspiracy that Khan had against
us.

582
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,900
We were able to do this.
I am so.

583
00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:36,800
Glad is there a website?
People can go and find more

584
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,600
information about your words,
your book, your upcoming

585
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,200
Hollywood project, your company
way, can they go?

586
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:50,200
So so yeah, there's a couple.
So the first I'd say to learn

587
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,800
about both of us would be
Shelly.

588
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,100
Sued.com that's shellikins89
d.com.

589
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,600
Then our podcast is it's on all
the platforms but I'd say the

590
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,900
one that we tend to direct
people to is the Shelly

591
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:11,600
story.com so it's just the
Shelly that's you know story.com

592
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:15,300
and then our business is Geo
star Chicago.com.

593
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:20,100
So it's like GI o, STAAR
Chicago.com.

594
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:23,700
Wonderful, have a great rest of
the day, guys.

595
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,300
This was so much fun.
Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

596
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:28,000
Thanks so much.
Thank you.

597
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:28,300
Thank you.